1933 Saints

[Guest Stujoe]

Now that the government has 10 more of these (to go along with the 2 already in the Smithsonian), what do you think should be done with them? The treasury has said it "does not intend to monetize, issue or auction them". Personally, I think that is BS. Do they really need 10 more to publically exhibit and educate the public? Why not put half or more of them on the market? Not that I will ever be able to afford one, of course , but I think it is a waste to have 12 of 13 out of collector's hands. Although, it is a bit better than melting them like they did with 9 of them a while back.

[Ætheling]

I'd melt them...

 

Seriously i can't see the government's problem with it, why don't they just issue them and auction them off to collectors? It'd be a nice profit for them. They'll get nothing out of melting them except the satisfaction that they could. Which seems rather spiteful to me.

[Ætheling]

And rather pointless.

[Blackhawk]

You can bet that the lawyers of the owner of the one 1933 Saint that legal to own are working overtime to keep these out of the public's hands.

[gxseries]

I guess the more there is, the "less" value it will be. Wait, does that mean that the Saint isn't the world's most unique coin any longer? O_O

[papadoc]

i havent heard about this... but i bet the guy that paid 7.5 million for his is a little annoyed

[Ætheling]

Serves him right. Remember coin values go up and they come down.

 

Although having said that his is still the historic piece of the whole lot, the first to be released, the first to be sold and legal to own and it's also got good pedigree. So i don't think he'd lose that much you know.

[gxseries]

Perhaps the next two world's most expensive coins are going to hit more than 7 million usd next... the next two that I know of is the China 1987(?) Platinum trial strike panda with only 5 striked which went off over 1 million USD and the next one was the Russian 1825 *konstantine* ruble with approximately 7 or so struck with other "varieties" found so far, which hit over half a million USD.

 

Wait, that Austrian 32kilo Euro coin would most certainly be interesting too (not too sure what the mintage number was...)

 

That's what I know of right now, although I don't know how rare the rest of the US coins could be...

[jtryka]

Based on the legal settlement with the previously auctioned 33 Saint, the Mint is not permitted to monetize or sell any subsequent 33 Saints discovered. So I don't think they have many options on what to do with these coins besides either melt them or exhibit them. If they were issued and sold, it would put the 33 down to the level of the 27-D, which is still a $2 million coin, but not a $7 million coin!

[Conder101]

They can't monitize or sell them, but they could donate them to museums or other organizations thereby transfering title. Then those groups could sell them. (and cut the government back in for a slice of the pie.) Not in keeping with the spirt of the agreement but in keeping with the letter of it.

[Ætheling]

Based on the legal settlement with the previously auctioned 33 Saint, the Mint is not permitted to monetize or sell any subsequent 33 Saints discovered.  So I don't think they have many options on what to do with these coins besides either melt them or exhibit them.  If they were issued and sold, it would put the 33 down to the level of the 27-D, which is still a $2 million coin, but not a $7 million coin!

 

 

I'm sure the mint could get the government involved to overturn the settlement or pay it off and make up the losses from the issue of further 1933 $20.

 

Governments can do pretty much what they like if they put their mind to it.

[jtryka]

Governments can do pretty much what they like if they put their mind to it.

 

I suppose this is why I keep a framed copy of FDR's thieving communist executive order in my office, just to remind me not to trust the Feds!

[Ætheling]

Best policy in my book!

[Guest Stujoe]

Based on the legal settlement with the previously auctioned 33 Saint, the Mint is not permitted to monetize or sell any subsequent 33 Saints discovered. 

 

 

Was that in the settlement? I read the press release that the mint just put out and I couldn't tell if that was in the settlement or just somethingthe mint said they wouldn't do.

 

If they agreed to that in the settlement, it was stupidity.

[Conder101]

< I'm sure the mint could get the government involved to overturn the settlement or pay it off and make up the losses from the issue of further 1933 $20. >

The Mint was not a party to the agreement, nor to the confiscation of he new hoard. They have no involvement with the situation at all. The agreement was between the purchaser of the previous coin and the Federal government (Treasury Dept?), not the Mint.

[henare]

 

Based on the legal settlement with the previously auctioned 33 Saint, the Mint is not permitted to monetize or sell any subsequent 33 Saints discovered.

 

i didn't realize it was up to the mint to monetize the coins or to sell them. i thought monetization came from the federal reserve, no? and the mint never has to sell them--they can return them to the people who submitted the coins.

 

i personally think the contract relating to the coin that was auctioned is not defensible in a court.

 

of course, i'm not a lawyer, your mileage will vary, and batteries are never included.

[28Plain]

I guess the more there is, the "less" value it will be. Wait, does that mean that the Saint isn't the world's most unique coin any longer? O_O

The '33 Saint Gaudens isn't unique at all. If there's more than one example of a coin, it isn't unique. A unique item is a one-of-a-kind item. This whole thing makes me think that there could be many more '33 double eagles in existence. I've long suspected as much anyway.

[28Plain]

i didn't realize it was up to the mint to monetize the coins or to sell them.

 

A valid point, though I can't agree that the federal reserve has any lawful authority to monetize anything. If one is to consult the supreme law of the land, the US Constitution, no branch of government has the authority to demonetize any lawfully struck gold or silver coin. In fact, the document contains a strict prohibition against recognizing anything other than gold or silver coin as money.

[jtryka]

i didn't realize it was up to the mint to monetize the coins or to sell them.  i thought monetization came from the federal reserve, no?  and the mint never has to sell them--they can return them to the people who submitted the coins.

 

i personally think the contract relating to the coin that was auctioned is not defensible in a court. 

 

of course, i'm not a lawyer, your mileage will vary, and batteries are never included.

 

You know, I've oftened wondered and still actually believe that not all of the gold confiscated illegally by FDR ended up being melted into bars. I would not be at all surprised if one day the mint "found" a number of bags of unc gold coins and sold them like they did the CC Morgan hoard back in the 1970s. I sure would love being able to buy a 27-D for $5,000 or whatever they would charge to get rid of the several thousand they "found"!

 

As for the whole monetization issue, the whole executive order fiasco was of dubious constitutionality to begin with, and I am not sure any of it really makes sense at all. Of course today we have nothing but base metal coins so the whole concept of issuance and monetization bears little meaning to the original mint function of coining silver and gold submitted by citizens.

[Art]

I remember reading an account of the 1933 coins back when the auction was taking place, that put forth the theory that a number of 1933's were released into circulation, legally but called back as part of the surrender. The theory was that coins that had been circulated this way and then left the country weren't subject to siezure and would therefore be legal today.

 

I guess if someone could prove the lineage they might be able to make a good case. There was a rumor of a coin that had been given to a small museum in Canada by a gentleman who purchased 4 examples in Philadelphia right after they were minted. Urban legend? Could be interesting.

[28Plain]

You know, I've oftened wondered and still actually believe that not all of the gold confiscated illegally by FDR ended up being melted into bars.  I would not be at all surprised if one day the mint "found" a number of bags of unc gold coins and sold them like they did the CC Morgan hoard back in the 1970s.  I sure would love being able to buy a 27-D for $5,000 or whatever they would charge to get rid of the several thousand they "found"! 

 

As for the whole monetization issue, the whole executive order fiasco was of dubious constitutionality to begin with, and I am not sure any of it really makes sense at all.  Of course today we have nothing but base metal coins so the whole concept of issuance and monetization bears little meaning to the original mint function of coining silver and gold submitted by citizens.

 

 

When FDR issued his order, private citizens mostly flipped him the bird and kept their gold, but most of the gold coin in the country was in banks and the banks handed over the coin.. According to some, almost none of the gold coin confiscated was melted. As it stands today, most of the US gold that shows up on the domestic rare coin market comes from banks in Europe, proving that seized gold coin was used over the decades for exchange settlement.

 

Money in the US was always considered the property of the bearer and there is nothing in the Constitution which declares money minted by the US mint to be the property of the government. If the money belongs to the government, then we are basically slaves with no property rights whatsoever.

[Ætheling]

When FDR issued his order, private citizens mostly flipped him the bird and kept their gold, but most of the gold coin in the country was in banks and the banks handed over the coin..  According to some, almost none of the gold coin confiscated was melted.  As it stands today, most of the US gold that shows up on the domestic rare coin market comes from banks in Europe, proving that seized gold coin was used over the decades for exchange settlement.

 

 

This is probably quite true i'd hazard a guess that most of the coins that did get melted by the US government were foreign coins being held in the reserves. One example comes straight to mind, after the First World War the British government had to pay off some war debt and sent over the entire mintage (or thereabouts) of the London mint 1917 gold sovereigns... only a handful of specimens still exist. The coin is such that if one comes up for sale it's guaranteed to be a forgery. The US melted nearly the whole lot down. I suppose French, Austrian, German and all other manner of gold coins acquired by the US government would have met similar ends.

[Mediccoin]

Those poor, poor gold coins So when I see one of those government gold bars I could possibly be looking at gold coins melted down.

[jtryka]

Money in the US was always considered the property of the bearer and there is nothing in the Constitution which declares money minted by the US mint to be the property of the government. If the money belongs to the government, then we are basically slaves with no property rights whatsoever.

 

28Plain, meet Kelo v. New London!

 

As for the shipment of coins overseas, I believe most of that occurred before the devaluation of the dollar in 1933-34, particularly since the executive order was issued along with an export ban. Also, since FDR raised the gold price from $20.67 to $32, it might have been hard to convince come foreign bankers that the coin marked $20 should be accepted to settle a $30.96 payment!

 

I believe most of the coins were melted and placed in the vault under the New York Fed, where most countries have a dedicated section of the vault and where international payments under Bretton-Woods consisted of moving 400 oz. bars between sections. I've been down there, and there were no coins that I saw, only very large bars in stacks!

[Ætheling]

And bars are boring compared to coins!