extant4cell Posted October 29, 2014 Report Share Posted October 29, 2014 I doubt that a 1764 die would have been lying around til 1783, but it is interesting that 1764 dies were in use at the mint. In a recent discussion on that forum there was an opinion that there were no real 1764 coins. The overdates suggest that such coins may have existed, and perhaps still do. The real 1764 coins were sent along with dies and other instrument to Kolyvan Plant to be later used on Suzun mint. There are no known real 1764 coins at present that one could examine, not even a picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 29, 2014 Report Share Posted October 29, 2014 PCGS photo. Cannot take credit for it. Thank you for the advice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 The real 1764 coins were sent along with dies and other instrument to Kolyvan Plant to be later used on Suzun mint. There are no known real 1764 coins at present that one could examine, not even a picture. There is a bunch of overdates, where no real coins exist for the under-date. Whole line of 1760/1762... 1793 em 2 kop (not Paul's overstrike). 1764/1767 Siberia, apparently. Also, there is a bunch of novodels struck with original dies, where no original coin exists: all 1722 2 rubles (although, some claim there is 1 original struck with unhardened dies), all 180. rubles (although, some claim there are originals), etc. Existence of 1767/4 does not prove that originals existed. Only that they might have existed. SO much stuff left to discover. By the way, did you figure out whether that 1764 from Sincona was a novodel or a fake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 PCGS photo. Cannot take credit for it. Thank you for the advice... I do not think NGC let's you save photos from their site. It is interesting that PCGS does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 30, 2014 Report Share Posted October 30, 2014 yep. And, lets you check the registry without paying for memberships... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 The overdate 1767/4 on dengas proves that the original dies used to produce original sample coins in SPB existed and were sent to Siberia, and were used as overdate dies. That kind of proves that 2 k 1764 from Sincona, that looks different from original 1766 / 1767 coins is a novodel. Here is the final version of the article http://coins.lave.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=726716&sid=4b374ccd9cf00f942ab31f400b6b6d64 that I finished too late and that is only available here. And here is a final proоf - 1768/4 2k: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 I wrote a lengthy reply, but decided to erase it. I will just give you one idea -- 1711/2 and 1713/4 1 ruble coins... I hope this makes you understand how naive your "proves" sounds. If it does not, well, I tried... :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 I think you might find this post in Russian interesting: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=143117&p=1547309 Particular the pictures of the new dies for the 1776 series (here is one of them): followed by this post: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=143117&p=1547446 I wish you would leave your lengthy reply, as I am not into overdates on the Peter roubles. The only one I remember jumping into memory is 170X/1710... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 This is not a picture of the die. This is a hub. It was used to make dies (one of the steps). The overdates on 2 particular coins I mentioned are significant because 1711 and 1713 rubles never existed, while there are overdates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Yes, it is hub (матрица, мастер-пуансон, etc.)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Just to show... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Something looks odd about that Cipher coin extent4cell. Never seen such an unusual overstrike... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 It's not Cipher, it's Paul's recoining 5 kopecks that kept the most of Cipher (you can see "3" from 1793 and "EM" under the eagle) - double overstike To me it looks good. No one on Russian sister forum raised an alarm. It was found in sand and it will need some careful cleaning... Here are its brothers from previous auctions ( http://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/id,6991/prohod.html?filters[from]=700&filters[to]=0# ) : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Discussion took place here: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=141989&hl= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Eugene, thank you very much for sharing!! This is very exciting. Sigi . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 I am excited too! My friend is meeting with the seller at the end of the week. It was in the find of about 30 coins in the foundation of a house in a sandy area. These are other coins from that find: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145548&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145367&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145377&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145375&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145547&hl= and other: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145547&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145376&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145377&hl= etc... Hopefully I'll get it by February. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMIS Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 This is a very interesting find. I assume these were the good luck coins, placed in the foundation when the house was built. Where was the house located? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 These are the coins the seller have shown earlier, and apparently they are from different finds. Yes, I think these were the good-luck coins. I asked him, and he said that KM coins came from Kaluga and Smolensk, the overstrikes were found with AM and EM in Sumy, North-East of Ukraine (former South-East of Russian Empire). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMIS Posted December 2, 2014 Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 It is interesting how far from home KM's managed to get. Since we are on the subject, have you seen any research done on dug up coins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 3, 2014 Report Share Posted December 3, 2014 Personally I never researched this, but I'm sure there is info like that available if someone looked into it already. I guess EM and KM were the only truely mass-produced, so ended up anywere, but others are more interesting to map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 3, 2014 Report Share Posted December 3, 2014 I am excited too! My friend is meeting with the seller at the end of the week. It was in the find of about 30 coins in the foundation of a house in a sandy area. These are other coins from that find: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145548&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145367&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145377&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145375&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145547&hl= and other: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145547&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145376&hl= http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=145377&hl= etc... Hopefully I'll get it by February. Good luck and -- be careful. Sigi . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 3, 2014 Report Share Posted December 3, 2014 Thank you Sigi. He has my instructions. Real life (when you careful) isn't as scary as shown in the movies, but can be a lot more detrimental.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldcollectibles310 Posted December 5, 2014 Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 VERY NICE COINS!! I HAVE SEVERAL COINS AND MEDALS AS WELL BUT I AM NEW AT COLLECTING RUSSIAN COINS AND MEDALS. PERHAPS SOMEONE COULD GIVE ME SOME FEED BACK WITH MY IMAGES. THANKS IN ADVANCE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2014 Nice coins! My only advise is do not spend too much. Also please do not type in all CAPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extant4cell Posted December 6, 2014 Report Share Posted December 6, 2014 If I only could have Alex's advice when I started collecting again back in 2009 after a long long period... But I probably would be none-the-wiser! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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