Jefimok

[BKB]

What do you think?

 

[lennysky]

Kind of cute. You need to be specific about what you are looking for in terms of the opinion. Condition, authenticity, estimate, etc.

 

What do you think?

 

[BKB]

Kind of cute. You need to be specific about what you are looking for in terms of the opinion. Condition, authenticity, estimate, etc.

 

Yep, all of the above.

[IgorS]

From looking at the picture toning seems artificial. If that is true, many other questions creep up.

[Thee_Immortal_One]

This is a fairly well studied series of coins.

After reviewing Zander's Silver Rubles and Yefimoks of Romanov Russia 1654-1915 the date stamp is limited to three types. The date stamp on the coin does not match any of the three with the "6" seeming most out of place. The double framing of the date is unusual.

 

The undercoin needs to be identified and checked against Spassky's work on Yefimoks.

 

My final comment is the last "5" in the date also is not aligned according to the three known types.

 

Hopefully more will comment.

[alexbq2]

This is a fairly well studied series of coins.

After reviewing Zander's Silver Rubles and Yefimoks of Romanov Russia 1654-1915 the date stamp is limited to three types. The date stamp on the coin does not match any of the three with the "6" seeming most out of place. The double framing of the date is unusual.

 

The undercoin needs to be identified and checked against Spassky's work on Yefimoks.

 

My final comment is the last "5" in the date also is not aligned according to the three known types.

 

Hopefully more will comment.

 

The undercoin is from Tirol (Austria), the end of the inscription on the reverse reads Tirolis. I looked it up in Dr. Spassky's book, the obverse looks like his 1513. The print is rather bad, but I think I see the same double frame around the date.

[BKB]

From looking at the picture toning seems artificial. If that is true, many other questions creep up.

 

not only that, the coin was cleaned first.

[gxseries]

I never held a jefimok so I have no idea what they are like. Although there is something that bugs me - is it normal for a really ancient silver coin to be struck so "circular"? Most of the jefimok that I have seen online are all crude.

[lennysky]

The roundness of the coin is quite normal, as the technology was quite advanced for that time/place.

 

I never held a jefimok so I have no idea what they are like. Although there is something that bugs me - is it normal for a really ancient silver coin to be struck so "circular"? Most of the jefimok that I have seen online are all crude.

[BKB]

This is a fairly well studied series of coins.

After reviewing Zander's Silver Rubles and Yefimoks of Romanov Russia 1654-1915 the date stamp is limited to three types. The date stamp on the coin does not match any of the three with the "6" seeming most out of place. The double framing of the date is unusual.

 

The undercoin needs to be identified and checked against Spassky's work on Yefimoks.

 

My final comment is the last "5" in the date also is not aligned according to the three known types.

 

Hopefully more will comment.

 

I am not worried about the date stamp, because it is very similar to Fuchs #19, and practically identical (double frame and all) to Fuchs #58. The kopek stamp is similar, but not identical. But, those were used in combinations.

 

Here is a picture from Hesselgesser sale of June 2005 which re-sold Fuchs #58. The provenance of the coin: Ex Pauli Collection, F.F. Kraus, Hamburg 1928, lot 1365, purchased Dr Wruck, Berlin, October 1963; Ex Fuchs Sale 1997 lot 58. :

 

 

It would be nice to track the new owner, and, if he is close by, to compare to real thing and not to a picture.

[BKB]

The roundness of the coin is quite normal, as the technology was quite advanced for that time/place.

 

Yep, these were rolled on a metal sheet with rollers, not struck with dies on a press. Then punched out after the sheet was straightened. At least, this is my understanding of the process. Thus, it is very hard to find an off-center thaler of the period.

[one-kuna]

I am not worried about the date stamp, because it is very similar to Fuchs #19, and practically identical (double frame and all) to Fuchs #58. The kopek stamp is similar, but not identical. But, those were used in combinations.

 

Here is a picture from Hesselgesser sale of June 2005 which re-sold Fuchs #58. The provenance of the coin: Ex Pauli Collection, F.F. Kraus, Hamburg 1928, lot 1365, purchased Dr Wruck, Berlin, October 1963; Ex Fuchs Sale 1997 lot 58. :

 

 

It would be nice to track the new owner, and, if he is close by, to compare to real thing and not to a picture.

 

I looked at Fuchs#19 and Fuchs #58: the first one is too far to be simlilar, and second one is close to be similar...

I looked again through all Fuchs collection - I do not like them most...

Besides all respects and authorities were given to Fuchs what is guarantee that his collection had all originals???

What was a guarantee that nik-named Pauli collection, but otherwise the Hermitage duplicates, had all original items, may be few were not...

On one hand - all respects go to Ilyin being of a Hermitage coins&medals curator (1928 Pauli collection sale)...

On another hand - Soviet Philatelic Association could have taken anything from the Mint and Hermitage collections without his permit (Ilyin) and sell it or consign it to West...

...what are <<you>> worried about this Yefimok ...

[BKB]

I looked at Fuchs#19 and Fuchs #58: the first one is too far to be simlilar, and second one is close to be similar...

I looked again through all Fuchs collection - I do not like them most...

Besides all respects and authorities were given to Fuchs what is guarantee that his collection had all originals???

What was a guarantee that nik-named Pauli collection, but otherwise the Hermitage duplicates, had all original items, may be few were not...

On one hand - all respects go to Ilyin being of a Hermitage coins&medals curator (1928 Pauli collection sale)...

On another hand - Soviet Philatelic Association could have taken anything from the Mint and Hermitage collections without his permit (Ilyin) and sell it or consign it to West...

...what are <<you>> worried about this Yefimok ...

 

I will first reply to the last sentence, if that is a question... Color worries me. I am no expert on thalers, so I cannot tell whether such color is possible. But I take IgorS word for it. When color is artificial, it is normally done to hide something. I like a cleaned coin better that an artificially toned coin.

 

If you do not trust Pauli collection, and you do not trust Fuchs collection, then what could you trust? For that matter, Hermitage collection could be full of fakes. Where are the real coins? Or, the story that about 1,000,000 thalers were counterstamped in 1655 is also an urban tale? SPA did sell a bunch of novodels, but no report of fakes being sold was ever made...

[one-kuna]

I will first reply to the last sentence, if that is a question... Color worries me. I am no expert on thalers, so I cannot tell whether such color is possible. But I take IgorS word for it. When color is artificial, it is normally done to hide something. I like a cleaned coin better that an artificially toned coin.

 

If you do not trust Pauli collection, and you do not trust Fuchs collection, then what could you trust? For that matter, Hermitage collection could be full of fakes. Where are the real coins? Or, the story that about 1,000,000 thalers were counterstamped in 1655 is also an urban tale? SPA did sell a bunch of novodels, but no report of fakes being sold was ever made...

 

let me put this way - there is no question from me to you, as you asked this forum about this item - you getting back what I see and I think...

 

i am coming over to see this item in my hand so make sure you have it available...

 

i did not use a word trust, you did...

 

if you so categorical about trusts, would you have these kind of worries let say if this piece cost you or anyone else

as of these days $200-250???? I know the answer...

 

didn't you ask me earlier if I would buy some Yefimoks named by certain numbers from recent Triton, can you remember what I said and what you said - we agreed that we would never buy them why???? - because of that high price !!!! and they are look very suspecious!!!!... are we on the same page?

[BKB]

let me put this way - there is no question from me to you, as you asked this forum about this item - you getting back what I see and I think...

 

i am coming over to see this item in my hand so make sure you have it available...

 

i did not use a word trust, you did...

 

if you so categorical about trusts, would you have these kind of worries let say if this piece cost you or anyone else

as of these days $200-250???? I know the answer...

 

didn't you ask me earlier if I would buy some Yefimoks named by certain numbers from recent Triton, can you remember what I said and what you said - we agreed that we would never buy them why???? - because of that high price !!!! and they are look very suspecious!!!!... are we on the same page?

 

too many exclamation points... Get your ass over here and take a look at it. It is available and waiting for you, honey... And, it was not Triton, but Kunker. I would buy all of those, even the questionable ones, at $200-250.

[lennysky]

At that price>>>>>> share the wealth people!

 

too many exclamation points... Get your ass over here and take a look at it. It is available and waiting for you, honey... And, it was not Triton, but Kunker. I would buy all of those, even the questionable ones, at $200-250.

[one-kuna]

What do you think?

 

 

Yefimok exceeded my expectations, I do not have so much funds to aquire it...

 

Thank you so much for your hospitality - as a resullt of it I got very large pear <<BERA>>...

[BKB]

Yefimok exceeded my expectations, I do not have so much funds to aquire it...

 

Thank you so much for your hospitality - as a resullt of it I got very large pear <<BERA>>...

 

You are welcome, I guess... I wonder what those expectations were.

[squirrel]

expectations? what was the conclusion?

genuine Jefimok? fake counterstamp on genuine Taler?

[Oldman]

Yep, all of the above.

 

I'm afraid this is a fake.

The coin is toned (as correctly mentioned by Mr IgorS) artificially - there is no reason to do that on efimoks unless the reason is to cover some other "jobs".

In addition both stamps look fishy to me as they do not exactly match Spassky's examples..

[BKB]

I'm afraid this is a fake.

The coin is toned (as correctly mentioned by Mr IgorS) artificially - there is no reason to do that on jefimoks unless the reason is to cover some other "jobs".

In addition both stamps look fishy to me as they do not exactly match Spassky's examples..

 

Thank you for your opinion. To which Spassky examples are you comparing it to? The first or the second book? I, personally, like to compare my jefimoks to Fuchs coins which were also listed by Spassky, although not all pictured, and to Pauli collection. I also like Soderman specimens, when those come up for sale due to the history of acquisition of the jefimoks by Soderman. The modern images are way better, and unlike the Spassky book, are very good for comparison. I do not think the second Spassky book is usable in terms of images due to poor quality. The first book is much better, but it is missing a lot of coins present in the second book. I am pretty happy with the stamps, for I found similar stams in Fuchs collection, but the toning does bother me. However, I have purchased other undeniably original silver coins from Ukraine before that were artificially toned after those were cleaned when dug up. All in all, more questions than answers, but at the price I paid, I could live with the uncertainty.

[RW Julian]

Thank you for your opinion. To which Spassky examples are you comparing it to? The first or the second book? I, personally, like to compare my jefimoks to Fuchs coins which were also listed by Spassky, although not all pictured, and to Pauli collection. I also like Soderman specimens, when those come up for sale due to the history of acquisition of the jefimoks by Soderman. The modern images are way better, and unlike the Spassky book, are very good for comparison. I do not think the second Spassky book is usable in terms of images due to poor quality. The first book is much better, but it is missing a lot of coins present in the second book. I am pretty happy with the stamps, for I found similar stams in Fuchs collection, but the toning does bother me. However, I have purchased other undeniably original silver coins from Ukraine before that were artificially toned after those were cleaned when dug up. All in all, more questions than answers, but at the price I paid, I could live with the uncertainty.

I purchased one of the Fuchs yefimoks through a friend who attended the sale. It was

cleaned and/or polished. I understand that Fuchs did this to most of his yefimoks. I

would assume that some of the Fuchs pieces have been deliberately toned since that

time to hide the cleaning.

 

RWJ

[BKB]

I purchased one of the Fuchs yefimoks through a friend who attended the sale. It was

cleaned and/or polished. I understand that Fuchs did this to most of his yefimoks. I

would assume that some of the Fuchs pieces have been deliberately toned since that

time to hide the cleaning.

 

RWJ

 

I also bought one from CNG (Triton sale a few years back) It is toned to a jet black color, probably artificially. If it was cleaned before, the cleaning was very light. No scratches from harsh cleaning. I wonder why Fuchs cleaned these coins? I have a few regular imperial coins from his collection and they never been cleaned.