Sir Sisu Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Bought three coins. I was excited to get them until.... I am guessing either plated or painted. Very large pics! Flaking Uneven surface Even unnatural shine There was also another coin with a similar "look" but without the flaking. The third coin was ok fortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 It's hard to tell from the photos but there's the possibility that the flaking is actual flaws in the original planchett. Maybe one of our error experts will have a better idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 23, 2006 Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Hard to tell from the photos, but does the middle one (uneven surface) show evidence of clashed dies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Sisu Posted February 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2006 Hard to tell from the photos, but does the middle one (uneven surface) show evidence of clashed dies? None that I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Sisu Posted February 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 I made the pics smaller if that has prohibited some from looking at these. Is there any type of diagnostics one can do short of scratching the surface? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stujoe Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 That closeup does look odd but I am not sure exactly what it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Looks more cast than struck, weak and flat on the high points (if it was wear it shouldn't have that much lustre!). Very grainy surface on the legends there (bottom right hand corner). Although that's the first time i've ever seen one of those so don't take my word for it. What are those strange raised surfaces near the eagle's(?) head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 I couldn't find an image of the peso to play with, but I believe you have the 1956 peso with the front of a building on the reverse. The lines on your coin seem to align with the base of the building and the bottom of the doors? I could be wrong without having the coin to inspect, but I still think it looks line an artifact of a clashed die. You might want to superimpose an image of the reverse over the obverse to see if the marks align. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 A clashed die would account for the lack of strenght on the strike there due to the lack of metal available to strike up fully. Are those lines near the bird's head raised or sunk? If it's a clashed die they should be sunk in due to the metal being sucked into the other die upon striking. (Or so my experience with British coins showing ghosting illustrates anyhow) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Sisu Posted February 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 ... weak and flat on the high points (if it was wear it shouldn't have that much lustre!). Exactly what aroused my suspicion. At first I though it might have been dipped, but when I saw that flake-like area, I began to think it was even worse. What are those strange raised surfaces near the eagle's(?) head? I wish I new! There are other areas like that also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Sisu Posted February 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 I couldn't find an image of the peso to play with, but I believe you have the 1956 peso with the front of a building on the reverse. ... Yes it is. Here is the reverse: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Best thing you can do with these coins of yours is to weight them and check against what they should weigh. Probably the best determining factor when it comes to circumstances like these. If the weight is light by a gram or so, then they are fakes. If the weight is more or less spot on then it is more likely than not that the coins are genuine but struck using dirty or damaged dies at the very end of their life cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Hmm... on a somewhat related topic, I have a Bolivian 50c from the 1890s that has rough surfaces. Otherwise fine. Perhaps die problems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Best thing you can do with these coins of yours is to weight them and check against what they should weigh. Probably the best determining factor when it comes to circumstances like these. If the weight is light by a gram or so, then they are fakes. If the weight is more or less spot on then it is more likely than not that the coins are genuine but struck using dirty or damaged dies at the very end of their life cycle. I'm thinking China myself. Although as you point out very worn dies can make coins look like this. Sometimes it can be tough to tell from a photo, but the weight should sort it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Hmm... on a somewhat related topic, I have a Bolivian 50c from the 1890s that has rough surfaces. Otherwise fine. Perhaps die problems? Could be, have you got a picture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Could be, have you got a picture? I'll have to find it first... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiffibunny Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Best thing you can do with these coins of yours is to weight them and check against what they should weigh. Probably the best determining factor when it comes to circumstances like these. The scale is on the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Exactly what aroused my suspicion. At first I though it might have been dipped, but when I saw that flake-like area, I began to think it was even worse. That could be from a die breaking up though in it's dying breaths. Although you'd need an error person to diagnose something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 I just finished reading on the web the newest book about fake coins (german) It looks like the majority of the fakes are prooflike with microscratches because they polished the coins after pouring them in a centrifuge like contraption (lost wax process and then pouring and augmenting the density buy having a motor swing the mold like a centrifuge ) Weight and composition may be right but this process leaves a coin that is slightly shrunk in diameter and it has to be polished The polishing was done to hide the somewhat uneven surfaces but let microscopic lines http://www.moneytrend.at/wmf/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josemartins Posted February 26, 2006 Report Share Posted February 26, 2006 Are you sure these coins were not lacquered/laminated? It looks an excess of wax/lacquer to me... Jose Bought three coins. I was excited to get them until.... I am guessing either plated or painted. Very large pics! Flaking Uneven surface Even unnatural shine There was also another coin with a similar "look" but without the flaking. The third coin was ok fortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Without the coin in hand and making photographs of exactly the same size, I can't be sure about the clashed dies. However, in working with your photographs, the features in the field align with the reverse design. The pattern is not an exact match, but its close (hence the problem in not having the coin in hand). I photographed one of my coins with clashed dies as an example. The coin, a Weimar Republic 1923 200 Mark aluminum follows: Note the traces of the clashed dies on either side of the eagle's head. To align the reverse and obverse dies, the reverse die must be properly rotated (in this case medal alighment) and flipped horizontal to reproduce the dies in oppostion to one another. Superimposing one over the other, you can see where the raised imagery from the reverse die created the image in the field on the obverse die, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ætheling Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Yes Bill but doesn't clashed dies create a subsidence look on the eagle side? If metal has flowed away from the eagle side and into the side with the 200 on, then the marks on the eagle side are slightly incuse. In Sisu's case the bumps next to the bird's head are actually raised up in relief, if it had been a case of clashed dies then they would be incuse. I believe i'm right to think that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted February 27, 2006 Report Share Posted February 27, 2006 Yes Bill but doesn't clashed dies create a subsidence look on the eagle side? If metal has flowed away from the eagle side and into the side with the 200 on, then the marks on the eagle side are slightly incuse. In Sisu's case the bumps next to the bird's head are actually raised up in relief, if it had been a case of clashed dies then they would be incuse. I believe i'm right to think that? Yes, I agree. I stand corrected. The reverse of the Columbian piece has little in the way of flat fields, and the varying texture (relief) is somewhat different from a traditional coin die. Depending on how hard they struck and how the metal flowed, I'm assuming it could create some unevenness in how it impacted the obverse die. But, on further reflection, I agree that it is unlikely. That leaves fake as a more likely explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drwstr123 Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Not that my opinion is worth anything but here it is: My first impression before reading the thread was 1) imperfect alloy mix 2) clashed die As to authenticity, mic it and weigh it. Sincerely, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foundinrolls Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 I do see what could potentially be marks indicating a clashed die. The flaking of metal is called a lamination error. Some of the planchet peels up an falls away on occasion. Have Fun, Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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