BKB Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I have seen the least amt. of errors in Illin & Tolstoy, as compared to all other such catalogs. Thus, I tend to trust it the most. Do not know what you mean about the modern school of thought, but it would be a bit more honest to list the coin as Sev. 201, which it is, and not Severin 200, which it is not.. While one may argue with the Severin's notion that it is a novodel, it is impossible to argue that the coin is not Sev. 200. Maybe it is just an honest error... As to jetons, all medals also have plain edge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 ... As to jetons, all medals also have plain edge... But not jetons. Jetons were made in the feel of coins, not medals. People were spending them as money. Many of the original jetons have edge markings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 ...As to jetons, all medals also have plain edge... Almost forgot - there are medals with edge inscriptions, starting all the way from Peter I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I guess I should have said most medals... My bad. Please pardon my ignorance. I know even less about medals than gold coins. I just hope that this little excursion into jetons/medals will not distruct us away from the original issue of pattern/novodel & Sev. 200 vs. Sev. 201. Although, it looks like no one is interested in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I guess I should have said most medals... My bad. Please pardon my ignorance. I know even less about medals than gold coins. I just hope that this little excursion into jetons/medals will not distruct us away from the original issue of pattern/novodel & Sev. 200 vs. Sev. 201. Although, it looks like no one is interested in it. I do not think it is a question of being interested, it is more about having a say in this matter. I looked in Bitkin, Renaissance and Severin. If I am not mistaken the Renaissance coin is pictured as Novodel in Bitkin. And Renaissance coin looks different from Markov's coins, while Markov's coin looks more like Bitkin's original. I will let the higher authorities decide. Possibly Mr. Bitkin will joins us in this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I do not think it is a question of being interested, it is more about having a say in this matter. I am following this thread with interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 I do not think it is a question of being interested, it is more about having a say in this matter. I looked in Bitkin, Renaissance and Severin. If I am not mistaken the Renaissance coin is pictured as Novodel in Bitkin. And Renaissance coin looks different from Markov's coins, while Markov's coin looks more like Bitkin's original. I will let the higher authorities decide. Possibly Mr. Bitkin will joins us in this discussion. Yep. It would be very interesting to find out the source of info. that allowed Mr. Bitkin to place that entry in his catalogue (especially the plain edge) Markov's coin is Bitkin's original. (if it has a plain edge) As I said, Uzdenikov lists it (Markov coin) as an original with edge #6. Bitkin lists it as an original with edge #0. So does GM. Plate Xiii #20. I guess this is where the plain edge comes from and not from Petrov. However, if Mr. Bitkin just took his info from GM, I would place my confidence in Illin & Tolstoy vs. GM corpus when it comes to novodels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 Additional references for Rouble of 1756 in Atlas of General Schubert from 1857 page 151+plate “#617 Tr.13. Ch.1120. P. S.2269. R.2066 RRR 60 Fr. C.Schub.de 2,13 gr. C.Krug de 1,31 gr. C.Reich de 1,64 gr. C.Chaud. Piece d’epreuve” /Text in French/ Coin is too small and hard to see because techniques was used on plate better identified for large coin, possible some body have better quality pages and able to see if dot exist on the coin in the plate. Weight for Markov coin 1,66 gm. is closed to Reichel coin 1,64 gm. Rarenum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted December 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 I suppose this is still on-topic since it comes up at the NY Sale ... ... but I am wondering how the grade of AU is justified for a coin like this which obviously resided underground for decades, if not centuries? Or is this just Mr. Markov's sense of humor? Link: Denga, 1797 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 I suppose this is still on-topic since it comes up at the NY Sale ... ... but I am wondering how the grade of AU is justified for a coin like this which obviously resided underground for decades, if not centuries? Or is this just Mr. Markov's sense of humor? Link: Denga, 1797 AM But the 1797 Denga AM is not at all scarce! And it is very very far from AU. Why this ridiculous $200 estimate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 well, he did mention corroded, so technicaly an accurate description. Perhaps a better description would be: "Buried immediately after minting, never circulated!" this one, however, is a mistake: http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewlot&am...01&lot=1142 Its not the rare (R1?) version with mintmark at sides of eagle, its the common variant 1788 MM 5k Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 I thought the rare 1856 BM denga was with the wide cipher? http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewlot&am...01&lot=1293 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 I thought the rare 1856 BM denga was with the wide cipher? http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewlot&am...01&lot=1293 Correct. It's another mistake. I don't think I've seen the wide cipher 1856BM. Narrow cipher - many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 15, 2008 Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 All "mistakes" are curiously one sided... At a time like this I like a simple description of G&M or Swiss Bank. I guess those guys believe that they "cater" to a more sophisticated audience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted December 20, 2008 Report Share Posted December 20, 2008 Who likes the estimates for Russian coins on upcoming Heritage auction? Their lots 22478, 22479, 22480 (1909 Gold 5 Rubles) have estimates of $3000-$4000 or even $4000-$5000. These coins are commonly sold at $900-1200. Same story with many other coins. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 5, 2009 Report Share Posted January 5, 2009 Interesting note on 1756 pattern: Here is the description of the 1756 pattern in the catalog: PATTERN Rouble 1756. 1.66 gm. GOLD. Fr 120, Bit 559 (R4), Diakov 387 (R4), Petrov (300 Rubl.), Sev 200 (RRRR), Uzd 4079 (RRR). Of the greatest rarity and importance Choice extremely fine Ex Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Collection sale, Hess, Luzern, October 25, 1939, lot # 172.Ex Grand Duke George Mikhailovich Collection sale, Christie’s July 3, 1950, lot # 106.Ex Schweizerischer Bankverein ‘Leonid Sodermann Collection Sale’, Basel, February 4, 1977, lot 128... Severin lists it under #201 (not 200) as "restrike" of pattern with a dot at the end of the legend. Bitkin, on the other hand, lists it as an original with a plain edge! Looks like an obvious error to me... The interesting point of this story is that THERE IS NO PICTURE IN SEVERIN for NUMBER 200, description only...as above by KB. Although, Severin #200 with no pic is listed as (-) and three dots, Severin #201 which is current coin from New York sale is only (-) and one dot. There is no proof so far that this coin is Severin # 200. I trust this one better - Moreira auction from Superior Gallery back to 1988 had one same coin lot#1224 listed as NOVODEL and Severin #201. P.S. In Russian, Severin #201 says: Новодельная чеканка предыдущей модификации (#200). Точка на конце надписи по кругу. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted January 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2009 Who likes the estimates for Russian coins on upcoming Heritage auction? Their lots 22478, 22479, 22480 (1909 Gold 5 Rubles) have estimates of $3000-$4000 or even $4000-$5000. These coins are commonly sold at $900-1200. Same story with many other coins. WCO And three or four years ago they cost only $150 in AU and $250+ in MS... Whereas Severin states that in the 1950's or 60's, when he wrote his books, that these 1909 5 rouble coins had "recently flooded the market". Indeed, every time I go to eBay I find at least three or four of these for sale within the time period of one month; they are offered at just about every other auction I see, too. 1909 five roubles is just NOT THAT RARE! 1910 or 1911 five roubles, well -- that is another story! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Well, as usual the volume is high. This year they have almost 400 lots scheduled over 2 hours. That's about one lot every 20 seconds.And that's before the almost 600 medals start. Could be a long night. let's see how these coins and medals can be auctioned for 18 (to be exact) second per lot from 7:00pm to 9:00pm...partners of new york sales probably planning to surprise prospective buyers within a banquet dinner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 let's see how these coins and medals can be auctioned for 18 (to be exact) second per lot from 7:00pm to 9:00pm...partners of new york sales probably planning to surprise prospective buyers within a banquet dinner... Will see soon enough. The auction is Thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Will see soon enough. The auction is Thursday. Heritage yesterday was going so fast, I could not write PRs fast enough, so anything is possible... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Heritage yesterday was going so fast, I could not write PRs fast enough, so anything is possible... Guys, i will not attempt the room with an empty stomach... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Will see soon enough. The auction is Thursday. if partners are not plannig to feed prospective buyers and guests before the auction starts, the only thing what i can think about 18 sec per lot is that some lots (which were discussed earlier) will be withdrew to keep the auction speed...yeee yeeee yeee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 Catalog is at the printer's as of this Monday. Will probably see the catalog online before we get the printed version. And yes, they will be mailed from Europe. would not mind to get a hardcover copy if ever such can be printed out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Does anyone have prices realized in emailable or postable format yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Does anyone have prices realized in emailable or postable format yet? I have it on hand but not in electronic form yet. Let me know if there's a specific lot or lots you're interested in. Best Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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