Selling replicas and copies of coins

[bobh]

Take a look at all the fakes here, dozens of them:

Fake coins for sale (cheaper by the dozen??)

 

As I understand it, if a coin is not genuine and is being sold as a replica, there has to be the word "COPY", "REPLICA" or "RESTRIKE" struck somewhere on the metal itself. Is that correct?

[NumisMattic2200]

That's what I heard, at least according to our laws (Britain / USA et al.) .. but what if it was made elsewhere?? - sorry. these must be obvious fakes, by implication..

[just carl]

Yes and no. Supposed to be a law that states the size, shape and location of the words copy or fake on a coin.

HOWEVER, there is a growing market for counterfeits, fakes and copies that do not state that on the coin. And the prices are getting up there pending the exactness of weight, detail, material. At coin shows I've heard buyers now opening asking for such fakes and the prices of some are actually more than an original. I guess people are now willing to pay for artistic means rather than authenticity.

[Brett]

Here is part of the 1973 Hobby Protection Act

 

Sec. 304.6 Marking requirements for imitation numismatic items.

 

(a) An imitation numismatic item which is manufactured in the United States, or imported into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce, shall be plainly and permanently marked “COPY”.

( The word “COPY” shall be marked upon the item legibly, conspicuously, and nondeceptively, and in accordance with the further requirements of these regulations.

(1) The word “COPY” shall appear in capital letters, in the English language.

(2) The word “COPY” shall be marked on either the obverse or the reverse surface of the item. It shall not be marked on the edge of the item.

(3) An imitation numismatic item of incusable material shall be incused with the word “COPY” in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction, and a minimum depth of three-tenths of one millimeter (0.3 mm) or to one-half (\1/2\) the thickness of the reproduction, whichever is the lesser. The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word “COPY” shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction.

(4) An imitation numismatic item composed of nonincusable material shall be imprinted with the word “COPY” in sans-serif letters having a vertical dimension of not less than two millimeters (2.0 mm) or not less than one-sixth of the diameter of the reproduction. The minimum total horizontal dimension of the word “COPY” shall be six millimeters (6.0 mm) or not less than one-half of the diameter of the reproduction.

 

 

Ok, so the way I interpret part "a" is you only have to put the word COPY on the coin if it is going to be introduced into circulating commerce.....seems like this law would really only cover US coinage, as that is the only thing that circulates in the US.

[tabbs]

As I understand it, if a coin is not genuine and is being sold as a replica, there has to be the word "COPY", "REPLICA" or "RESTRIKE" struck somewhere on the metal itself. Is that correct?

That seller is in Malta, it seems. So yes, if Maltese law requires such marks on replicas, then it would be a violation of the law to not add them.

 

Christian

[bobh]

Here is part of the 1973 Hobby Protection Act

Sec. 304.6 Marking requirements for imitation numismatic items.

 

[snip]

 

Ok, so the way I interpret part "a" is you only have to put the word COPY on the coin if it is going to be introduced into circulating commerce.....seems like this law would really only cover US coinage, as that is the only thing that circulates in the US.

Thanks for the detailed quote, Brett!

 

"Circulating commerce", as I interpret this, means that it is OK to own a fake without any special marking, but it is illegal to offer it for sale within the USA. I am not a lawyer, but if I can bid on an eBay auction which is listed under ebay.com, and the seller ships to the USA, then even if the seller is located in a foreign country it should be illegal to sell and then ship such an item to a U.S. address. I don't see why this shouldn't apply to foreign coins as well, especially if they are purportedly valuable gold or rare coins.

 

Of course, the loophole would be if the point of sale were determined to be outside the USA, in which case the buyer could legally import such an item if it were already owned by them ... just as it would be legal to travel to Malta, buy the item there, and import it into the USA. The crux of the matter is whether listing such an item on eBay is already offering it for sale within the USA ... only if buyers in the USA are excluded would that not be the case, IMHO.

[tabbs]

Hmm. If the seller offers an item that is perfectly legal to sell in his country, do you actually expect him to know about what regulations apply in your or my or some other country? According to your view, nothing can be offered on eBay that violates the law in any of the don't-know-how-many countries where eBay is accessible. Does not sound very practical to me, but then I am not a lawyer.

 

Christian

[Delta]

Ok, so the way I interpret part "a" is you only have to put the word COPY on the coin if it is going to be introduced into circulating commerce.....seems like this law would really only cover US coinage, as that is the only thing that circulates in the US.

 

I disagree, the way I read that is it is perfectly legal to create or own an unmarked reproduction, but if it is to be sold or traded within the US to consumers it must be marked as "COPY". This protects consumers while allows for perfect replicas for use in drama, education, museums etc... Since no replica coins are intended to circulate (as this would be counterfeit) it would apply to all replica coins.

[YeOldeCollector]

There are many hammered fakes on eBay attempting to be passed off as genuine, these fakes read WRL on the coin somewhere signifying Westair Reproductions Limited.

 

Clive.

[bobh]

Hmm. If the seller offers an item that is perfectly legal to sell in his country, do you actually expect him to know about what regulations apply in your or my or some other country? According to your view, nothing can be offered on eBay that violates the law in any of the don't-know-how-many countries where eBay is accessible. Does not sound very practical to me, but then I am not a lawyer.

 

Christian

There are actually many other examples of this problem. For example, Germany has laws against publishing materials which glorify the Nazi regime or question the historical facts about the Holocaust. For years, there was a ton of Nazi stuff published by someone in Lincoln, Nebraska (in German) which was smuggled into Germany and Austria -- maybe it still is. And a lot of this was offered on eBay and probably still is once in awhile. The publisher couldn't be arrested in the USA because of freedom of the press, and there were no American laws similar to the German laws. But eBay has rules prohibiting the offering of such materials. Also, although some forms of pornography are legal in most Western countries, eBay also has its rules against that. And listing counterfeit coins is also prohibited by eBay, although -- as we have seen here -- the laws differ from country to country on this.

 

So it's not just a legal issue, although it might be. I can't understand why eBay is so lax in enforcing some rules and not others. IIRC, it wasn't easy to get them to stop listing the Nazi propaganda, either.

[tabbs]

The Lauck case was a little different, I think - he was arrested in Denmark, and then in prison in Germany, because of the printed nazi propaganda material he distributed in German and to Germany. Sure, if a seller of medal/coin replicas was in the US, or maybe even if he sold replicas "via" eBay US specifically, he should comply with US law. But does that apply to this particular seller? What if some other country in this world has similarly detailed - but different - regulations about how such replicas should be marked?

 

Apart from rules and limitations that eBay sets itself, it could be useful to have a warning on auction pages, e.g. about the location of the seller and that the laws of that location do not necessarily apply to the viewer's location. Personally I would not mind at all if the regulations concerning such replicas were a little tougher here in Germany for example. But it would be awful if each and every replica I buy from eBay* had to be marked in several different ways - COPY in bold because of the regulations in country A, something like a big triangle because that is what country B wants, and a warning in three different languages because that's what the law in country C says ...

 

(* if I bought such pieces from eBay, that is )

 

Christian

[bobh]

But it would be awful if each and every replica I buy from eBay* had to be marked in several different ways - COPY in bold because of the regulations in country A, something like a big triangle because that is what country B wants, and a warning in three different languages because that's what the law in country C says ...

 

(* if I bought such pieces from eBay, that is )

 

Christian

EBay could require some marks independently of other countries' laws. It doesn't really matter what word or symbol is on the coin as long as it is clearly marked. The big problem is when coins have no marks at all, and people buy these things as replicas, then try to sell them as genuine to unsuspecting buyers.

[Delta]

EBay could require some marks independently of other countries' laws. It doesn't really matter what word or symbol is on the coin as long as it is clearly marked. The big problem is when coins have no marks at all, and people buy these things as replicas, then try to sell them as genuine to unsuspecting buyers.

 

In my experience eBay pick and choose with their own rules. If you're selling one or two dogey items you get warned or banned, if your selling banned items in bucket loads they don't care less as long as you're paying your fees.

[Scottishmoney]

In my experience eBay pick and choose with their own rules. If you're selling one or two dogey items you get warned or banned, if your selling banned items in bucket loads they don't care less as long as you're paying your fees.

 

 

Yep, as long as you pay your eBay fees they are pleased as piss in the wind. Think about it.

[Drusus]

They are a market place, a venue for sellers and buyers (a very large one). They are not coin experts so it is tough to hold it against them. Its like going to one of these large flea markets where fakes of all kinds are being sold by the different sellers who rent space there...you have to protect yourself in those places as well.

 

What I love is when someone they dont know from Adam drops them an e-mail to point out fakes and then he gets angry when ebay doesnt drop everything on his word to take action. Its even more humorous when that guy is a seller in exactly the same type of coins. You might know what you are talking about when it comes to coins, but they dont know that...they dont know you, they dont know what your qualifications are (or if you even have any), they are not going to just take your word for it...nor should they.

 

I have seen people on coin forums come running to post about some crooked seller or fakes dealer and so often I dont think they are right in their assessment...or at least they are unable to support the assessment other than 'it doesnt look right'. If someone came to me and said they were on my website and tells me they think one of my coins is fake. I might take a second look or even take steps to verify if what the person says makes some sense but I would not simply take their word for it....ever.

 

The only way ebay can truly crack down on coin fakes is to keep experts on staff to constantly troll their website looking for fakes...or to look into the claims of what is probably a deluge of e-mails from self proclaimed experts who spend their time policing ebay and reporting sellers. Its buyer beware there and always has been from day one. I would rather have to spend the time to protect myself then to have ebay take action on listings on the word of people they cannot verify as knowing what they are talking about. I guess they could keep experts on the payroll but that would mean more money and people would them bitch and moan when the fees are pushed higher because they have to pay the salaries of coins experts in Russian, US, ancients, German, etc...etc...

 

There will always be people who will target a place like ebay regardless of what they do.

[bobh]

The only way ebay can truly crack down on coin fakes is to keep experts on staff to constantly troll their website looking for fakes...or to look into the claims of what is probably a deluge of e-mails from self proclaimed experts who spend their time policing ebay and reporting sellers.

Well, eBay actively encourages everyone to report items which appear to violate listing policies, not just "experts". It often doesn't require any special expertise to recognize a fake, merely good eyes and a few good reference works. And I doubt that there is a "deluge" of these reports ... especially considering that there is more of a deluge of fake coins being auctioned there!

 

Its buyer beware there and always has been from day one. I would rather have to spend the time to protect myself then to have ebay take action on listings on the word of people they cannot verify as knowing what they are talking about. I guess they could keep experts on the payroll but that would mean more money and people would them bitch and moan when the fees are pushed higher because they have to pay the salaries of coins experts in Russian, US, ancients, German, etc...etc...

 

There will always be people who will target a place like ebay regardless of what they do.

Obviously, the buyer must beware. I have been tricked into buying a fake now and then, as I'm sure most of us have at one time or another. In every case, I was careful enough not to buy from any seller if they didn't have at least a 99% feedback score and a return policy. As a result, I have been able to return such items and receive a full refund.

 

Once in a while, eBay does respond when people send them notice of fake coins, and the auctions are cancelled. It's actually not such a bad system, but I get the feeling that they are slow to act at times.

[tabbs]

Even if eBay is quick when it comes to canceling auctions of fake coins, that would not address the initial issue. Guess it's one thing to offer a counterfeited coin and pretend it's an authentic piece, or to offer a piece and claim "I don't know anything about this, so buyer beware" ... eBay may well act in such cases, if the coin in question is actually fake.

 

But in this case the seller does state that these are copies. So unless eBay has its own rules about such pieces, it may be legal for the seller to offer them. And yes, provided the "copy" character is not too obvious, some buyer could later try and sell them as authentic pieces ...

 

Christian

[Vfox]

There are tons of fake coins coming out of China lately, my local dealer just turned a guy away with 27 fake Morgan and peace dollars last week actually. They looked exact but were about 5 grams underweight. I've seen some of the 1795-1797 small eagle dollars with lettered edges, made of silver, at flea markets...they look very convincing but you can notice small differences if you know where to look...I fear for unwitting buyers who don't know what to look for.

 

I think this website would be a good place to create a catalog of the new counterfeits, I think pointing out die differences and subtleties would be extremely worthwhile for new collectors; not to mention those not familiar with older coinage. We could use anything from pictures of the coins from eBay to scans or photos if anyone owns any of them. I think we are a website community that should undertake cataloging these images for future references, I honestly feel it's our duty to educate moreso than anything else. If I was a new collector I would have valued something like that very highly. What say you guys?

[just carl]

Here is part of the 1973 Hobby Protection Act

 

Sec. 304.6 Marking requirements for imitation numismatic items.

 

(a) An imitation numismatic item which is manufactured in the United States, or imported into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce, shall be plainly and permanently marked “COPY”.

 

In reality this law,as with many laws, is vague. By this I mean there are duplicates, replicas, counterfeits, copies, etc. All in the terminology. Here our law states a numismatic item.

Per Webster numismatic means pertaining to or consisting of coins and medals. Then too Webster says coins have numerous definitions. Only one is "A piece of metal stamped by government authority for use as money.

However, the term Replica for a coin could be interpreted as not a copy for monitary purposes but for a display item. Such coins are made and sold every day as drinking glass holders, clock faces, even toilet seats. A copy, if not made of metals similar to a government issued coin, could be interpreted as not covered by this law and not requiring a notation of copy. How about a copy made in Lead, Tin and Copper? Not similar to our government issued coins.

Now just which government is discussed in this law? If the government of China starts, and is, making copies of our monitary system, isn't that a government?

As with any of our laws with the right attorney anyone could get off from a charge of making someting like this. And if those fakes or counterfeits come from China, whose going to take them to court?

And at coin shows people are now asking for such fakes if done well.

[bobh]

And at coin shows people are now asking for such fakes if done well.

Oh, I see ... pretty soon, I guess PCGS and NGC will even be slabbing these ... perhaps grading them e.g.: "GC-63" (Genuine Counterfeit, MS-63) ...

And they will be MUCH more expensive than the originals (at least the unslabbed originals)!

[bustchaser]

Thanks for the detailed quote, Brett!

 

"Circulating commerce", as I interpret this, means that it is OK to own a fake without any special marking, but it is illegal to offer it for sale within the USA. I am not a lawyer, but if I can bid on an eBay auction which is listed under ebay.com, and the seller ships to the USA, then even if the seller is located in a foreign country it should be illegal to sell and then ship such an item to a U.S. address. I don't see why this shouldn't apply to foreign coins as well, especially if they are purportedly valuable gold or rare coins.

 

Of course, the loophole would be if the point of sale were determined to be outside the USA, in which case the buyer could legally import such an item if it were already owned by them ... just as it would be legal to travel to Malta, buy the item there, and import it into the USA. The crux of the matter is whether listing such an item on eBay is already offering it for sale within the USA ... only if buyers in the USA are excluded would that not be the case, IMHO.

 

 

It is not illegal for a seller to sell such a replica to a buyer in the US--unless, of course, Maltese law states otherwise. Nor would there would be anything illegal for a US citizen to own such an item as long as it remained in Malta. It would, however, be illegal for the buyer to import the item into the US without stamping COPY onto it. It makes no difference where the point of sale occurs--it wouldn't legally pass customs whether shipped by the seller or hand carried by the buyer.

[satootoko]

it would be awful if each and every replica I buy from eBay* had to be marked in several different ways - COPY in bold because of the regulations in country A, something like a big triangle because that is what country B wants, and a warning in three different languages because that's what the law in country C says

I ran into that exact problem several years ago in trying to draft a common form for my company to use nationally. On one particular point South Carolina required an exact phrase which was specifically prohibited in Virgina. Several other states had similar, but not exact, specific wording requirements.

[Vfox]

After looking around on the interwebs I found an article about the Chinese counterfeiting rings. It's a bunch of photos on about.com.

 

 

http://coins.about.com/od/worldcoins/ig/Ch...erfeiting-Ring/

 

Just like the about eBayer, there are no laws against counterfeiting in China as long as they are sold as a counterfeit. You can imagine, and most know, the problems that can evolve from that.