RARENUM Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Hello David! Of course it is a very rare coin, and I'm sure someone will be happy to buy it. My remarks were not directed at you, but just in a general way about NGC and their policies. You say the coin was not harshly cleaned. Also, we see that the grade of PF-58 is not such a good grade for a proof coin. Since I cannot see other things wrong with this coin, it must be the hairline scratches which bring down the grade. And most of the time, such scratches come from improper (harsh) cleaning. The other coin (PF-63) is much better and has just a few marks and scratches. I would hesitate to say that they come from cleaning, but it is quite possible that they do. The PF-58 coin seems to have scratches over the entire surface, and they are pretty big for hairlines. But of course, it is impossible to say from looking at pictures (pictures taken through plastic). It would be nice if NGC adopted the practice of ANACS and printed "cleaned" on the holder, IMHO. Otherwise, say I had a rare proof U.S. Morgan dollar which had been cleaned like this coin ... would they slab it or not? ANACS would, NGC probably not. I think they should be more consistent. To me, this is very much "market grading", and I do not like the practice (I know that sellers LOVE it, though). Hello Bobh , I would Grade my coin as PF (coin have mirror edge) and was cleaned. The problem in Grading Company, they down grading coins with nice toning and will give you better grade if coin was cleaned I have never grade coins for my collections, but now buyers get attractive buying slab coins by grading companies. I'm agree with you and not happy with with grading company, I would preferred some more details from them (rim nick, cleaning, harshly cleaned, bended...).More description about edge special for Russian coins will be help full. a)If we are taking about grading company bitwin NGC and PCGS ,I preferred NGC.In my experience I have send to PCGS 4 PF coins+1 PL and received back one Proof Cameo and 4 MS.I have broke 4 slabs and send to NGC and received back 3 Proof+1 MS. One time I have see 1 1/2 Family ruble from Russian dealer and in my opinion coin was original, coin was submitted to PCGS and they refuse to Grade with reason coin not Authentic ,I asked dealer to show coin in GIM and hi received certificate from GIM (Shiryakov).So finally I was happy because I still have not bad experience and very unhappy for PCGS 1.Not professional desion was made for coin over 50 K and, they have charge $100.00 just for saying coin not Original. Very unprofessional ,l hope they will provide better service in the future . Grading not only condition, knowledge about subject is first. One trip to Smithsonian will be helpful for them. Rarenum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted April 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Thank you, Rarenum ... I often wondered why most Russian coins are slabbed (if they are slabbed at all) by NGC and not PCGS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 We already discussed the "SLAB PROBLEM". Here, at Coinpeople and there, at russian forums. Once again, I would like to state this: "THERE ARE BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO SAYS I DO NOT LIKE SLABS , PLASTIC, whatever you call it, BUT I PERSONALLY KNOW PEOPLE WHO SAYS THAT AND AT THE SAME TIME BUYING AND SELLING THEM". About proofs for Commemorative coins. They DO exist. I have never seen only 1913 Rouble in proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted April 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 We already discussed the "SLAB PROBLEM". Here, at Coinpeople and there, at russian forums. Once again, I would like to state this: "THERE ARE BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO SAYS I DO NOT LIKE SLABS , PLASTIC, whatever you call it, BUT I PERSONALLY KNOW PEOPLE WHO SAYS THAT AND AT THE SAME TIME BUYING AND SELLING THEM". I don't like slabs ... but if I see a nice coin in a slab, and I like it, I will buy it even if it is in the slab. That is because I like to buy the coin, and not the slab. And I think most people who are serious collectors also will buy the coin and not the slab. About proofs for Commemorative coins. They DO exist. I have never seen only 1913 Rouble in proof. V.V. Kazakov says there aren't any 1913 commemorative roubles struck in proof. All the others -- yes, they do exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheburgen Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 I don't like slabs ... but if I see a nice coin in a slab, and I like it, I will buy it even if it is in the slab. That is because I like to buy the coin, and not the slab. And I think most people who are serious collectors also will buy the coin and not the slab. The problem is YOU ARE BUYING THE COIN IN THE SLAB, and if you are a serious collector you gonna do it anyway. The problem is YOU ARE BUYING THE COIN IN THE SLAB, and if you are a serious collector you gonna do it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted April 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 The problem is YOU ARE BUYING THE COIN IN THE SLAB, and if you are a serious collector you gonna do it anyway. That's what I meant, yes ... after all, the slab offers a little physical protection against dropping, scratches, etc. (but not environmental / humidity / etc.) A coin can always be removed from its slab! But usually it is not necessary. I'm not against slabs totally, just as I am not against using condoms ... but it is much nicer without! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 One time I have see 1 1/2 Family ruble from Russian dealer and in my opinion coin was original, coin was submitted to PCGS and they refuse to Grade with reason coin not Authentic ,I asked dealer to show coin in GIM and hi received certificate from GIM (Shiryakov).So finally I was happy because I still have not bad experience and very unhappy for PCGS 1.Not professional desion was made for coin over 50 K and, they have charge $100.00 just for saying coin not Original. Very unprofessional ,l hope they will provide better service in the future . Grading not only condition, knowledge about subject is first. One trip to Smithsonian will be helpful for them.Rarenum. I would trust an opinion about authenticity of Russian coins from GIM over an opinion from PCGS or NGC anytime. PCGS is expert in US coins. But being expert in US coins does not guarantee being expert in authenticating Russian coins. All my coins (except one) are raw and will stay that way. When the time comes that I decide to sell, I will ask the auction house if slabbing will bring higher prices for my coins. If so, then I will have them slabbed. If not, then I will sell them raw. This is purely a financial decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Grivna, I believe The Goldbergs had the Hesselgesser coins slabbed just prior to Auction, and it proved quite fruitful, even back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Grivna, I believe The Goldbergs had the Hesselgesser coins slabbed just prior to Auction, and it proved quite fruitful, even back then. I am not religious about this. I prefer my coins raw for my own enjoyment. For selling, the only question I will have is if slabbing will more than pay for itself in terms of prices obtained at auction. If the opinion of the auction house at that time is yes, then I will have them sold slabbed. With all due respect to Goldbergs, I am not convinced. Major European auction houses sell raw and get very strong prices. Slabbing might get higher prices in US auctions, I'm not so sure about in Gorny, Kuenker, UBS auctions. Heritage sells both raw and slabbed Russian coins. Prices seem strong for both. In any event, this is all academic because I have no plans to sell in the near future anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 I would trust an opinion about authenticity of Russian coins from GIM over an opinion from PCGS or NGC anytime. PCGS is expert in US coins. But being expert in US coins does not guarantee being expert in authenticating Russian coins. All my coins (except one) are raw and will stay that way. When the time comes that I decide to sell, I will ask the auction house if slabbing will bring higher prices for my coins. If so, then I will have them slabbed. If not, then I will sell them raw. This is purely a financial decision. I'm agree 100% with every word. I have 25 coins in the slab in my collection (Slabed by me only 1) The market is very strong today and I decide sell some common coins (in my opinion) and get more space in my safe deposit box for coin I have find for my collection . For 19th century copper coins eBay market looks better in the slab for today, for Auctions the price is better, but it is 6 month minimum waiting until paid day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 Hairlines on old Proof coins may be present not because of cleaning. If a Proof coin was kept in a small paper envelope (or cabinet) and there was friction when coin was removed/put back (or cabinet friction) such a coin could acquire hairlines. They will look the same as hairlines from cleaning. Also they are so detracting because surfaces are mirrored, polished, even a slightest hairline (that on a business struck coin would be almost invisible to the naked eye) looks detracting on a Proof. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 For selling, the only question I will have is if slabbing will more than pay for itself in terms of prices obtained at auction. If the opinion of the auction house at that time is yes, then I will have them sold slabbed.. exactly. If one were to sell one day, let the auction house pay for the slabbing, and foot the cost out of their(fatter) cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marv Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 exactly. If one were to sell one day, let the auction house pay for the slabbing, and foot the cost out of their(fatter) cut. Hello Squirrel. I have many coins purchased in slabs, but, with the exception of a red copper British half penny that I was curious about the grade that would be assigned, I have not slabbed a coin. I did try and slab a beautiful 1934 Washington quarter that I had purchased on Ebay for an inexpensive amount (that's about all I would purchase without a slab on Ebay). Now an MS66 1934 normal motto quarter might be worth, at best, $200, but I paid around 60, which was appropriate if it were only an MS65 (which it could have been based on the picture). There was a return privilege too. When I got the coin, it was a beaut! Clearly at least a 66 or maybe higher, at least in my opinion. I sent it to PCGS, based on their higher auction returns, it seemed at the time, for their slabs. Low and behold, the coin was returned ungraded as 'damaged.' I couldn't see it, and I called PCGS. They said they found a tiny area of burnishing on the reverse lower left wing tip of the eagle, including some of the wing spine above the tip. Well, I got out my glass, and sure enough, there it was. Very easy to miss unless you were looking for it. But they did find it. However, it's still a gorgeous coin, and I find it almost impossible to understand how PCGS (and NGC, too) say they won't slab this coin while they will slab the most ugly beat up coins (have you seen some MS60 coins lately?) with tons of bag marks, hairlines, etc. Those marks are not 'damage' whereas this tiny burnished area precludes the coin from slabbing. Now I know that ANACS will slab it, so that's where I'll have to go if I decide to slab it. When I showed the coin to the David Lang of NGC, he had to look quite a while until he found the area on the coin, and he said, "that's a shame. It's really a beautiful coin. Without that, it would be a 67!" With it, it's in a body bag!! Unbelievable. Maybe I should get out the SOS pad and work over that little area, so it would have hairlines, and then maybe they WOULD slab it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted April 29, 2008 Report Share Posted April 29, 2008 exactly. If one were to sell one day, let the auction house pay for the slabbing, and foot the cost out of their(fatter) cut. How much does a slab cost? 30 US? I have seen many a time coins that are inexpensive slabbed. And even if a 5 dollar coin in a slab sells for 30, who profited? This practice is somewhat confusing to me, although I am considering to have a few coin slabbed for preservation. Also, I have recently purchased (from a member of this forum), out of curiosity, a coin slabbed by NGC and graded PF-63. This is a coin from a soviet mint set. As I have always understood Proof is not a grade. It is a technology utilized in the minting of a coin. To the best of my knowledge Proof standards were not used in production of coins for these mint sets. In the past such coins were graded as PL not PF. So it was very curious to see such a coin graded PF. In this particular case I bought the case and not the coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.