marv

Guess the story and picture (and plastic) worked. Someone paid over $80,000 for the coin including commission. But they got an incomparable coin and a story with which to understand the rarity of its existence. Seems like small change compared to art auctions. A week ago a Picasso sold for $179,000,000.

FYI - the MS67 1826 rouble in the Coin People header graphic seems to be on the block at the St. James' sale on May 20th. See back cover of World Coin News April edition.

Just curious: here we are in March, 2015, seven months after IMIS made his prediction. Have many of the Sincona 19 lots appeared for sale at discounted prices?

This is a very nice coin, and an example of what you can get for not a great deal of money. Don't buy retail (from a dealer) if possible. Become familiar with the prices for various qualities of coins in this series (if in a slab, the grade on the slab is just a starter - once you look at enough coins at auction, you will develop a sense of what is nice and what is not). Don't buy the first thing you see. Then, when you have this experience, you can begin to get serious at auctions and have an idea of about how much to bid if the coin is really nice for the grade. It's important to look at many coins and the prices they sell for; otherwise, you have no idea what a fair bid is. If you can't attend auctions in person, a good website with high resolution pictures is worthwhile - Heritage (www.ha.com) comes to mind, but Kuenker and others in Europe take pretty good photos. To me, at least, the pictures on Spink and Baldwins are crap - pardon my terminology. You can't judge coins by their pictures IMO. The picture in your post is a very good picture. But beware - it is impossible to really see a coin except in the hand with good lighting. Pictures will never reveal very fine hairlines or missing luster (usually indicative of wear on post 1816 coins). So, when you get serious, if you can't attend in person and view the coins, find a good agent who will attend and give you a good description of the coins in which you're interested. You might have to pay that person a small commission, but it's worth it to prevent buying something you really won't end up liking. What I'm telling you is from personal experience. I have bought coins based solely on a picture, even a high res picture, and ended up dissatisfied with the coin. BTW, I started this thread with two pictures, one of which was my 1850 (raw) halfcrown. I guessed MS66 or (hopefully) MS67. Just got it back from NGC, and it is now officially in an MS67 slab! Finest graded at PCGS or NGC. Next best at NGC is the Cheshire MS65. There is only one other 1/2 crown graded 67 between 1816 and 1887, and that's a high-mintage 1844. I've not seen that coin at auction, so I don't know how it compares, but I'm sure it's nice - anything MS67 is nice, but there are many variations of "nice."

What is "overpriced?" There are no bargains in coins. You will never (or almost never) get "lucky" and find a coin for $25 for which someone else will pay $1000. Unless you educate yourself, it's much more likely that you will pay $100 for a coin that no one else will pay more than $25 for. Search ha.com, ebay results, coinarchives.com, sixbid.com, acsearch.info, and other auction sites to see their historical prices for the 1818-1820 crown in various grades. Then you will have an idea what people are willing to pay for these coins. Only then will you be able to make a judgement as to whether something offered by a seller is "overpriced" or not. Once you know what comparable coins have sold for in the near past, you are better armed to go into an online auction at Heritage or Stacksbowers or Spink or Baldwins, or ebay, etc., and make a reasonable bid on a coin you like and think you can afford. Unless you are able to distinguish possible Chinese counterfeits, stick with coins graded and encapsulated by reputable grading houses such as PCGS or NGC (or their British equivalent). At least that way, if you spend $500-$1000 for a nice AU example with some luster and good strike (most are very well struck), you will be getting something that you will always enjoy and not be worried that when you sell it you will discover that it was a fake. FWIW, a really nice high-grade coin of that type can sell for $4000-$10,000 depending on eye appeal and whether it's a proof.

Interesting. So as late as 1923, they still could not make accurate planchettes? During the late empire, wasn't the St. Petersburg mint supposed to be as modern and up to date as any world mint? The late gold imperial 5 and 10 roubles look pretty good. Did something happen to that technique when the Soviets took over?

Perhaps you're referring to adjustment marks? This was common before about 1840 when planchette preparation was not as exacting as it became in more modern times. When coin planchettes were sufficiently over weight, the weight was "adjusted" by removing material from the planchette with a file before striking. In some instances, the marks left by the adjustment were not obliterated by the striking process showing up on the finished coin. Underweight planchettes were re-melted to start over. With experience, adjustment marks are relatively easy to distinguish. Here is a good article on adjustment marks: http://coins.about.com/od/coingrading/f/adjustment_mark.htm

Die lines on a coin are not hairlines. Because lines resulting from wiping a die are incuse, i.e., they cut into the die's surface, the resulting lines on the coin struck from a die that's been wiped are in relief, i.e., they stick out above the surface of the coin. True hairlines cut into the surface of the coin. So while die lines may at first look like hairlines, they are not and are easily distinguished from hairlines with a good glass. In general, the grading companies do not downgrade a coin due to die lines. I have seen proof coins from dies that have been lightly wiped, and there are fine lines projecting abouve the proof surface, but the coin can still be highly graded unless of course the die lines are so evident and massive that eye appeal is affected. If this is the case, then the coin may be downgraded since the grading houses factor in eye appeal (in their opinion) a great deal. Die lines, then, are part of the original surface of the coin whereas hairlines are damage added after the coin has been minted. This is an important distinction for the grading companies.

In my opinion, it's all a question of degree. I've followed Russian coins at auction for 10 years. It seems to me, anecdotally at least, that NGC is a bit "softer" on hairlines in the circulated grades and for 18th century and earlier coins. In reality, it's a miracle to find a 250-year-old coin that hasn't been wiped ("cleaned") at some point. If the lines are very evident, then the coin may come back in a "details" holder, but even then, perhaps not if the coin is an important one. If the TPG details-graded for even light hairlines for 200-300 year old circulated coins, perhaps collectors wouldn't send them any coins of those eras, and there goes the income stream. For unc coins, they're a little more rigorous in my opinion, but even there, I've seen MS63 coins with a some significant hairlines. In fact, the PCGS guide lines permit hairlines on unc coins to a certain degree. A tiny patch is even permitted for MS65 and 66 (tinier patch). If any coin is blasted with deep and pervasive hairlines, then they become "scratches" and then most probably it will be details-graded. So it boils down to the opinion of the graders. But that's what grading is, right?

I wonder why you say this?

Well thanks for the compliment. I take my time and try to buy coins that I like and (hopefully) when the time comes, others will also like them. Since you're obviously interested in talers, you really should take a look at taleruniverse.com. He's got a very impressive number of just beautiful talers and 2 talers! If you would have tried for the coin at Stacks, you would have had to have deep pockets as I was told that the Austrian dealer was prepared to go to $10,000 for the coin. I'm with you on having some toning, but this is once that I had to make an exception. There have been other times that I've bought "white" coins with fabulous luster, but most of those have been Morgan silver dollars. They were in bags so most didn't tone, but a high grade brilliant silver proof-like Morgan is an object to behold. Of course the nice rainbow-toned coins in high grade blow you out of the water. But then again, they're not 500 years old. Just FYI, Heritage has auctioned many, many talers, but only two of this type since 2003. In fact the best one they sold was in 2003. Here's a link: http://coins.ha.com/itm/austria/world-coins/austria-ferdinand-i-taler-nd-1543-dav-8030-hall-mint-armored-bust-with-crown-and-scepter-eagle-and-legends-choice-unc-a-super/a/332-11460.s#Photo Not as nice as the one I bought, but still nice. Sold for $2357 with commission. I'm guessing there was a small horde at some point. Best

OK, here is what I dug up (NPI): I can't find any history prior to March, 2014, but this coin (raw) was in a Kuenker auction, 246, lot 3397 where it sold for around 2400 Euro plus commission (15%?). In August, it appeared in the Stacks auction, in a slab. In the Kuenker sale, this coin had more of the black toning around the periphery and possibly some light toning in the fields. By the time it appeared in the Stacks sale, much of the black toning around the periphery was gone, and the coin was now a blast white. My theory is that the successful buyer at Kuenker recognized what an outstanding coin it was, and guessed that it might grade high, especially if the ugly black "stuff" was removed, so he/she sent it to NCS where as much of the black was removed without over dipping the coin. There is enough pattern of the black "stuff" left to recognize that the Kuenker and Stacks coins are the same, but the Kuenker picture online is too fuzzy to really see what the coin looked like prior to slabbing. So the Kuenker buyer realized a gain of about $2500 for the process since the coin sold at Stacks for just shy of $6000 including commission. Although I generally don't buy blast white coins, this coin has such brilliant and genuine frosty luster that you just can't pass it up, especially on the reverse. To be picky, the obverse has a few hairlines, but where do you find another 16th century coin with such luster and strike? Every wrinkle in Frederick's bust is absolutely full. You have to see it to believe it. The Stacks cataloger raved about it. In searching acsearch.info or coinarchives, this variety is not common compared to other varieties of Frederick's coins. There are quite a few VF and EF coins, and one or two unc, as well as coins with planchet defects, but nothing comes close. Even some nice AU coins sold for $2000-3000 years ago. There just aren't many coins from the 1500's that are unc period. Perhaps there was a small horde of these found at one time. Just couldn't pass it up. But now I am researching it's history, and I'm hopeful that an "expert" might shed more light on the circumstances of the coin's issue. I've emailed the Hall mint museum and the Austrian Mint for an expert opinion. We'll see. WRT its genuineness: I have compared the dies to every other example on those search sites, and there are several different varieties of this coin; however this particular variety compares 100% to others of the same variety. I have no doubt it is genuine. It was bought out of Stacks by a famous Austrian dealer that anyone who collects Austrian would be familiar with, but whom I won't name. So if anyone knows talers, that man does. It has stimulated my interest in HRE talers. See www.taleruniverse.com

I recently purchased this coin of Ferdinand I, no date, struck sometime in Ferdinand's reign (1558-1564) as Holy Roman Emperor or posthumously by his son. The Stacks cataloger attributed it to Dav-8030, but I note there are several varieties of Dav-8030. This coin is struck from roller dies and has rosettes on both sides, has HIS. rather than HISP for Spain on the reverse. Since I don't have a copy of Davenport's "European Crowns 1486-1600" where this Davenport number is located, I don't know what the defining properties are for the various varieties. Perhaps someone who is knowledgeable about HRE early talers might help. According to what I've read, scholars used to assign this roller-die strike to Ferdinand's son as roller presses weren't in general use until after Ferdinand's death; however other expert opinions I've read mention the fact that Ferdinand experimented with roller presses in Augsburg before his death, and this variety might come from that time. Otherwise, all Ferdinand's talers are hammered. The Stacks cataloger called this one of the finest known, and the luster and strike as well as the surfaces are amazing for a coin of this age. Ex: Stacks ANA 2014. Here are the pictures:

To me the coin looks like it has some wear but has been wiped or lightly cleaned to make it appear bright. Just for your information, a graded (NGC AU55) was sold this year by Heritage for around $500, so unless the coin really is uncirculated, it's worth far less than 1500 Euros. Here is the link to the auction: http://coins.ha.com/itm/russia/world-coins/russia-nicholas-ii-rouble-1915-bc-au55-ngc-/a/3035-34819.s (You have to create an account to see the sale price, but it was $499.) You might also want to search the Heritage site for all 1915 roubles that have been sold, look at them and compare them to what you have. Your coin has a lot of hairlines that are indicative of cleaning, usually to make a coin look "better" i.e., brighter, so one would think it's uncirculated. I would be very careful before shelling out that kind of money without an informed opinion, either from a knowledgeable collector or dealer with the coin in hand. Pictures are not enough to render an informed opinion, especially with that kind of money at stake.