gxseries Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Thought of opening a thread of damaged Russian coins. Yes I know, it's not pretty but this is how I obtained some of my scarcer coins. I don't find them totally worthless. You still don't see too many of these anyways even without the severe damage. Here are some of mine: 1720 ruble Gilted, scratched, hinged etc. 1724 ruble Still is part of a jewellery - never had the guts to remove the hoop on top of it. 1736 ruble Ex-jewellery 1798 poltina Holed, repaired, scratched. I don't remember seeing too many Paul I poltinas. 1814 2 kopek Ouch 1827 25 kopeks Quite decent details but curses to the mountmarks 1877 ruble I'm not going to complain... I bought it at silver bullion. 1988 commemorative 3 rubles Any collector would cry - was a pretty coin. Bought it less than the silver bullion and silver at that time was 7USD... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 my holed EII grivennik can be a good addition to your collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Thought of opening a thread of damaged Russian coins. Yes I know, it's not pretty but this is how I obtained some of my scarcer coins. I don't find them totally worthless. You still don't see too many of these anyways even without the severe damage. Never understood collectors who invest their money into holed, damaged or ex-jewelry coins. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Never understood collectors who invest their money into holed, damaged or ex-jewelry coins. WCO I usually don't buy such things, but there is always an exception to the rule and in this case I made that exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Get into collecting Russian ducats or the Bulgarian ones, and you are not going to encounter unholed specimens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Get into collecting Russian ducats or the Bulgarian ones, and you are not going to encounter unholed specimens. I agree that there are some exceptions to the rule, for exceptionally rare coins may be, for coins that are made with hole too. But as a general rule I would suggest to avoid holed, mounted and otherwise damaged coins. To buy those in most cases is financially unwise. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Never understood collectors who invest their money into holed, damaged or ex-jewelry coins. WCO Silver 1726 original Polupoltinnik was holed, some times if you can not find better coin in mint condition. personally I collect coins, not grading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 The holed coins exists, so I collect them! More than that I ever prefer a holed coin than a bullion proof... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Every time buying a coin everyone is making a financial design. Does not matter if he is aware of it or not. Wise people build their collections with this on mind, carefully examine what they can afford for their money, how to invest and build their collection with better financial outcome. Sooner or later there will be time to sell, no one lives forever. To buy coins not only suitable into their collections, but those that are nice looking, lustrous, appealing, those that will be always desired by most other collectors, those that have a potential to increase their value in time. People who are careless about well being of their money, themselves and their families who could one day receive all the proceedings and benefits of increased value of carefully assembled collection look unwise for me. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 You see, that's the point. "Wise people build their collections with this on mind, carefully examine what they can afford for they money..." I personally cannot afford and do not wish to pay the outrageous prices in the market these days. To make it worse, they are going up a lot faster than what I personally like to spend. Take the above three 1700s rubles for example. If there weren't any damages and assuming if the grades are roughly about the same, I have to likely pay at least 3 to over 10 times the price of what I did in the past. If I am not mistaken, all of the rubles were bought around 100USD or so. (No, I am not joking - I even detest the idea of forking out 200 dollars) Even awful F+ rubles sell much hotter than that. The rest were bought at under silver bullion prices and a few were slightly over it. While investing in problem-free coins is one important point, realistic speaking, problem free coins are not going to appear in the market readily these days, not only because of the demand but as well as how the supplies are dwindling down really fast these days. Not too many buyers / collectors aren't just willing to sell their collections any time soon! Even such problem coins do sell because of the supply issue. Honestly speaking, if I CAN upgrade them, I would be more than happy to, but tell me, how much more do I have to spend? A grand? Two? Three? I would rather get other coins that are different designs, perhaps a damaged Ioann III ruble would be a nice idea. Quality does come at a price and I don't see why I should pay that awful extra amount as I am not investing in them - an example from each era for illustration is what I am aiming for. But lastly, all these coins ARE genuine and they did play a role in history, didn't they? It is the thought which I think is equally important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 You see, that's the point. "Wise people build their collections with this on mind, carefully examine what they can afford for their money..." I personally cannot afford and do not wish to pay the outrageous prices in the market these days. To make it worse, they are going up a lot faster than what I personally like to spend. Take the above three 1700s rubles for example. If there weren't any damages and assuming if the grades are roughly about the same, I have to likely pay at least 3 to over 10 times the price of what I did in the past. If I am not mistaken, all of the rubles were bought around 100USD or so. (No, I am not joking - I even detest the idea of forking out 200 dollars) Even awful F+ rubles sell much hotter than that. The rest were bought at under silver bullion prices and a few were slightly over it. While investing in problem-free coins is one important point, realistic speaking, problem free coins are not going to appear in the market readily these days, not only because of the demand but as well as how the supplies are dwindling down really fast these days. Not too many buyers / collectors aren't just willing to sell their collections any time soon! Even such problem coins do sell because of the supply issue. Honestly speaking, if I CAN upgrade them, I would be more than happy to, but tell me, how much more do I have to spend? A grand? Two? Three? I would rather get other coins that are different designs, perhaps a damaged Ioann III ruble would be a nice idea. Quality does come at a price and I don't see why I should pay that awful extra amount as I am not investing in them - an example from each era for illustration is what I am aiming for. But lastly, all these coins ARE genuine and they did play a role in history, didn't they? It is the thought which I think is equally important. Imagine, back than instead of 5 damaged Peter I and other coins where you paid $100 or so for each of them you purchased a single XF coin for $500. (I hope the prices are about correct for 3-4 years ago). Now your coins worth the same $100 or so may be a few bucks more, and that $500 coin moved to $2000 now. Also, collecting anything, someone should have realistic goals for their hobby. Let's say I want to collect Mercedes cars may be, but all I can afford are two smashed beyond repair in recent disaster cars. So my goal of collecting them is not realistic considering the resources that I have. I guess you got my point. Best, WCO P.S. Autumn and winter there will be lots of quality Russian coins to buy. Supply is not drying up as I see it. James Elmen auction will be soon. Brussels, Mr. Elsen Russian gold collection of old Finnish collector will follow. Several collections during New-York sale in January, among them "Blue Ridge" collection and auctions of Markov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Some people have different reasons for collecting other than resale value of the coin, I know I do. I invest my money wisely in other ways, I buy coins with my spending cash...for many reasons, the least of which is what someone values it at...the least of my cares is whether the value will go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 We must admit that exists collectors who don't care about the future value of things that they collect. If somebody buy a 1, 2, 3, 5, 10 circulated kopeks 1961 for 1.99$, and after that he pay another 3 $ for S/H I am sure that this guy don't mind about the value after 50 years... he just want to fill some holes in his collection. Most of collectors are investors too, but not at all... Market goes up and down (it seems that - with exceptions - the french coins and even german had a bad year in 2006...). Russian and US coins are on the wave in past years, but how long it will be? 10 more years? For US coins maybe more, but for Roubles the situation can be different. Today many "new rich" Russians penetrate the market, but Russia isn't yet 100% a healthy economic power. If a new recession come in Russia, I am sure that the prices will go down. Personally I am afraid about another situation, like in philately: due to a period of very high prices, demands will slow down, and in final the prices too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 ...I buy coins with my spending cash...for many reasons, the least of which is what someone values it at...the least of my cares is whether the value will go up. There are many kinds of gambling, we are talking about reasonable collecting. Reasonable collector (collector-investor) should care much why and what he is buying, what collecting goals he has to achieve and what financial outcome there will be. Those who does not care die leaving their collections to unknoweledgable relatives who goes to the nearby jewelry store and sells them below melting value. WCO I do not know, may be I am wrong, but it what it seems to be right for me. Some more people said that they would not buy a damaged coin. May be we can vote somehow, most collectors are buying without considering financial outcome of their purchases or with consideration, then it will be easy to see who are majority coin buyers: careless gamblers-collectors, pure investors who think financially only, or both collectors-investors that consider collectible part and financial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Your terminology is incorrect...I am not a careless gambler That would be like me calling you a money grubbing collector only worried about turning a profit. It makes it seem like I throw my money at anything...which is completely false...when I buy a coin I know its worth, I am not gambling or being in any way careless. I have my collecting goals, they no not involve trying to eek as much profit ut of my coins as I can...my goals have to do with cataloging and a certain type of collection...the coins I buy are worth what I pay (on the whole) and I doubt their value will lessen (though they might not go up much either) I leave my real finances out of coins all together, if they are worth something more than I paid all the better. Investment style collecting is fine if thats what you want. Thats not why I buy them. I will be leaving my child plenty when I die...my coins will just be an add on. ALL my coins are meticulously cataloged...anyone who gets my coins when I am dead will know what they are and what they are worth to collectors like yourself who only value a coin for how much money they might be able to turn it around for. Its just that if I can buy a great looking coin but it has a nick in the edge or a hole in it but the design is still is good shape...I dont care. Many coins are just out of my reach (because of money collectors most likely trying to get a profit on a nice chunk of silver, gold, or copper). Certainly I want to get the best coin for my money and there are exceptions to my rule of collecting and I will often times be willing to pay more for better quality (mainly ancients)...but I dont honestly care one bit how others collect or if I am in a minority. I wouldnt collect if I worried about the values of my coins...I collect for the pure historical and aesthetic value and a hole doesnt ruin that for me...The only time money is an issue in collecting for me is if I can get a better coin for cheaper... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 Your terminology is incorrect...I am not a careless gambler Dear Drusus, I was talking in general, not about you or any one else in particular. Please forgive me if it seemed as if I was talking about you. If that is possible to vote, may be it will be useful for all of us to figure out, who is statistical visitor of this forum. Best regards, WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 I usually don't buy such things, but there is always an exception to the rule and in this case I made that exception. Very rare and hard to find coin .I have find one porous for my collection ,and for last 10 years only only 3-4 coins on the auction was listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Very rare and hard to find coin .I have find one porous for my collection ,and for last 10 years only only 3-4 coins on the auction was listed. That is why I bought it. Of course, I'd love to have one in choice original unc (who wouldn't?) but I might never see such a coin in my lifetime. Maybe someday I will be able to get one without any damage, but it might be a long time before I get that chance. For now, I am happy (and proud) to own the one I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 OK. Here is my damaged coin. I kept it because I like the portrait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted October 24, 2006 Report Share Posted October 24, 2006 Coin collecting is a hobby. The real return is not financial (which is secondary), but rather in the pleasure derived from collecting. If we did not enjoy coins, we would not buy them. Just as a value of a coin is truly determined not by a catalog, but by how much one is willing to pay for it. A true numismatist who seeks to collect the best available, and particulary those which the market under-values will indeed turn a financial profit come time to sell the coins. But being one usually also requires one to either have vast finanicial resources, or have a very limited collection in terms of size. For most people, it is likely ideal for them to pursue coins of lesser quality, and/or potential to rise in value because doing so would allow them to have a greater variety of coins than they otherwise would have. Myself, I will often buy a low grade piece, even damaged, because it is something that I will enjoy. I can handle it and feel the history behind it, and not have to worry about damaging it. I can be just as happy, or even happier with it than someone who buys a far nicer example of the same piece, but who will never handle it, or see it outside of a safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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