extant4cell

It is very unfortunate that the fake production has came up to this level... I doubt that everyone is aware of these fakes, including grading companies...

I cannot imaging they would keep such a die or the master responsible for fixing it alive for long... Anything comes to my mind when I look at it: master had too much to drink a day before... he was told that he was made redundant and that was his payback... repaired dies used by counterfeiters? Interesting find.

This is why I started my interest in Novodel Denga's. Had this on my watch. It looks as authentic looking Novodel, and comparable to other known Novodel dies of Type 2 (http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=99414&st=25) ... However, I decided against buying this Novodel. That's the point of Novodels, having a copy of a coin in a really good condition UNC condition... Novodels, not coins per say, they are official fake coins that look good. If it was an original coin in this condition, it would be an extremely rare find, but they didn't make original coins in this year (http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?/topic/33230-are-there-different-1762-novodel-pattern-denga-coin-types/page__fromsearch__1) Cheers!

Russia in Chech is "Rusko", and Russian = "Rus", same in Slovak (I used to live there in 70-s). The seller must be from former Soviet states. There are a lot of Unkainian, Russian, and Belorusian people live there now. I'd say, that the guy who sells under that name is probably a little illitarate and has written as he hears it, not as it is written. "Rossiya" pronounced more like "Rasiya" with "a" pronounced as "u" in "ugly" and "ss" pronounced very short as single "s" by half Russian people, myself included... That gives so many ways of making a mistake (!!) as Rasia, Rusia, Rasiya, Rusiya, Rossia, Rosiya etc... Russia is written "Rossia" (Россия) in Russian, so another mistake that he could have made, would be, not knowing how to translate, and as he heard Russia called "Russia" in English movies, he could have written it as "Rassia", as "a" in Russian is pronounced as "u" in Russia. Brrr... Too much is written here now... Sorry.

If it was only one strike of these novodels, I would agree, but there were multiple strikes with different die sets (as far as I understand)... It is really strange, if you ask me...

Any idea why 1 k 1761 is missing? Coins: ..........Novodels: ___________________________ ................... 1760 10 Коp ................... 1760 4 Коp 1760 2 Коp (!!) 1760 1 Коp (!!) ................... 1760 Denga ____________________________ ................... 1761 10 Коp ................... 1761 4 Коp ................... 1761 2 Коp ................... = EMPTY = ................... 1761 Деньга ____________________________ 1762 10 Коp 1762 4 Коp 1762 2 Коp 1762 1 Коp 1762 Denga

Listings I am aware of, what about some stories, documents, history?

True, true... But the other side of the medal is, that if you don't pay, you get a strike from the seller. With enough strikes they disconnect you from buying. When you buy, you get into a contract. It is very unusual for seller to agree to send you a coin before you pay... eBay advises seller against this practice. Truth to be told, I have never had a problem of getting my money back when I had a case. A couple of times I even had to obtain spectral analysis from one of Melbourne central numismatic shops, but it never failed. It was troublesome, but, unless I was myself at fault for buying from seller with correct description that the coin is not genuine I always got my refund after sending it back. If the coin is genuine, but you don't like it, it's all different ball game, and you just keep the coin, and chose more careful next time... Agree 100%

I get that, thank you. Is there any literature (apart from GM) specifically on novodels that would include these and other novodels that I may be able to get?

Not a bad price! I am sorry, but although I have some holed coins, I don't especially like them, however rare they may be... No opinion on this one...

Sigi, eBay, as any other auction platform doesn't like unpaying buyers, so it is better to pay and later get a reimbursement on return, as long as seller accepts returns... You will loose the money on postage though, but will keep your eBay privileges, and if the seller is not agreeable, there is always a PayPal resolution centre, so you are well covered. Good luck!

Illegal commercial gains... The coin and the slab (both!) are the same as on a register in NGC. That proves an extra time that trusting the grading company explicitly may cost you too much. They do make mistakes and with clock-like regularity...

Alas, slab is real: http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/CertResults.aspx?CertNumber=2781463-020 the coin is very questionable though... I don't like the look of the eagle on both sides, looks like a chuke... and on the first photo, a part of the cloud on the left looks like a little Easter bunny... is there a need to compare it to the real dies?

That was the question, yes. The reason for asking is that there are some coins of Type I with different armature side of a coin, where word Denga and the drum look very different from the GM dies. Unfortunately, the paired picture that I posted later was deleted and no longer available. But if you can compare the pictures that I posted in the first post with the GM picture, you'll see what I mean.

What I meant was, were there different die sets for the same strike? Let's say for the GM coins of the same strike?

We'll just have to do what the ancient Greeks had to do to their coins when in doubt - do the multiple test cuts.. . Get a metal testing solution or buy a microscope. The composition of different metals is different... When I was a kid, I spent hours looking at my coins under microscope, that's how I found my first cast fake rouble of Ekaterina and took it back to the guy I swapped it with to reverse the deal... There are still ways, but may not be able to do this just judging by the picture... All and all, collecting coins in really good grade will become difficult...

Did you read anywhere if they made one set, or a few sets of dies for every Novodel strike? One thing in defense of Type 2 is that it looks like the die for armature side of the coin for type 2 is the same as for Type 3. They possibly used the same dies for Denga side adding a full stop after the year... Mixing dies must have been a common practice.

Sigi, I am glad, it was of help. Sorry, but just judging by the coin, it is difficult to decipher that it is a modern replica that looks like it was found in the ground. Very disappointing for you Sigi, but not to worry, you will find one this year, I'm sure! The time of numismatics will come to an end when they come up with and release the replicators. People will start collecting the programs for replicators instead... Download a coin parameters (program), press a button and you have a new "novodel" of the coin you desire, with patina of your choice... eBay will flourish...

Lets calm down a little. I am afraid that my argument is just like yours, after seeing number of these coins I feel it's a fake that is very similar to one very similar Chinese copy. In order for me to stay away from this coin it is a good enough argument for me. Besides, it is not a unique coin, I'd rather buy one from someone I trust with pictures of the coin that do not make me feel suspicious. Have I made mistakes previously, of cause I have, but that's exactly, why I will stay away from it. I don't like the picture, I don't like the surface close to the edge and stains etc, etc, etc... However, I can only express my opinion and God forbid me to talk you out from buying it if you like it...

Looks like in GM there are 3 coins, 2 are similar to one type and the other one to another, but not to type II: So, as Type I and III are reflected in GM and purely in sphere of art are appealing. Type II is somewhat too similar to the new fake coins that are made at present. They are just not good looking enough for coins made by mint. However, it may be one of the later Novodels, but until I get a prove that they are such, I will consider that type to be a fake. If someone may be able to contradict this statement, I would be happy to hear.

Is type II 1) an illegal "re-strike", or 2) later re-strike with official record in that case?

Good point. Collecting known and described in literature coins would be the way to go. I guess all these 3 types are recorded in GM?

So, I guess (again) that one can not really say that this or that type is really "original Novodel", but refer to it as "one of the known Novodels dies or types" (not even confirmed by literature) ... These pattern coins give me a headache that requires further study by specialists. But some of these coins are just too damn good looking!

I just now that... Kopeikin, thank you for your input. I've read your topic on CFN. Must agree it is a new generation of fake coins...

So, I guess, there are no records available in the literature?