extant4cell

Looks good in Firefox. No problem with loading. Cannot wait to see what the end result will be.

So that everyone would be able to use it and contribute to it from the start. So it is simple. Not too technical, and is user friendly.

I like the yellow color of your EM (KM or AM would be more interesting) ... Even EM's are becoming more difficult to find. Here is mine: that I recently upgraded with this one:

I'm sorry Ron, you lost me with all the technical jargon. Your message is very long, and although you mean well, I've lost an interest in reading it somewhere half way, and that was a challenge to get to its end. My point is not to create a perfect numismatic tool with deep research in every fake coin and connections to the references. This would be a time waster for me. My aim is to create a searchable internet based quick image reference tool, with minimal information. The aim of the tool to help collectors by warning them about possible forgeries of Russian coins and showing them examples, not to give them an in-depth analysis of why a fake is considered to be a fake, as this information can also be utilized by producers of these fakes to perfect them. Once the "coin" is established to be a fake, it's image is inserted into internet based searchable database for all to see. Minimal time om my behalf, benefits to me and others. Omnicoin, or any more sophisticated modern similar platform will suffice this project and may even become a source for such endeavors as yours. And it may grow to include other countries, as forgery is a common problem for all numismatic collections and collectors...

I know I promised to check Ron's database, and still have very little time this time of the year, so my apologies, I haven't done that yet. However, I had a thought on that subject. Why don't we utilze OmniCoin.com for cataloguing Russian problem coins? All we need to do, is to include these coins in our collection with "fake" written in the coin description at the end of its full description. I can hear people not being happy about this... But what about if we approach OmniCoin admin with such request: creating a login and password as for a separate "fakes collector" who only collects Russian fakes and ask OmniCoin admin to give us login and password by PM, so we all would be able to add only Russian counterfeits, fakes, imitation, fantasy, replica, copy, false coins? If this is done, we can easily find fakes on OmniCoin for a reference by searching "russia fake". We can include all of these in that collection under one roof, with an easy search option: http://www.omnicoin.com/search/?tp=1&s_a=russia+copy http://www.omnicoin.com/search/?tp=1&s_a=russia+fantasy http://www.omnicoin.com/search/?tp=1&s_a=russia+counterfeit http://www.omnicoin.com/search/?tp=1&s_a=false+russia and these ones: https://www.google.com.au/search?q=(counterfeit,fake,imitation,fantasy)+russia+coin&rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENAU358&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=GaR3UbvrI-W7iAfx_oHQCw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAQ&biw=1187&bih=606#rlz=1G1GGLQ_ENAU358&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=fake+russia+coin&oq=fake+russia+coin&gs_l=img.12...8903.9995.2.12498.4.4.0.0.0.0.1882.1882.8-1.1.0...0.0...1c.1.11.img.bjMUqRYPiGM&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.45580626,d.cGE&fp=7e4d7b334515c81c&biw=1187&bih=606 These searches would be easily replaced by one: http://www.omnicoin....s_a=russia+fake and once "coins" are cataloged, we'll be able to do a search by year like this (1867 is an example): http://www.omnicoin....ussia+fake+1867 these searches do not return the results at the moment, but if we all help, with ease, data-base will be full in a space of a year, and we'll have a resourse for new or irregular Russian coins collectors. Can we approach OmniCoin admin with such a request? What do you think, would you be able to help?

Well done! Easy to use and light for speed. Cheers!

Was it a Novodel fake?

Overwhelmed... I've built my web pages in Dreamweaver previously. It looks like I am in for some serious reading ... Thank you for your detailed answer. Once I get around it, I may ask you a few more questions if you don't mind me PM you. Cheers!

Steve, is there any chance you may be able to demonstrate this to us? This sounds wonderful, but as they say - a picture worth thousand words... Or at least can you point me in a direction of where I could read about how to build and use internet based data base like you mention? I am interested opening a web-site of my own, and it would be great if I could understand the workings of better web design with mysql incorporation. Thank you. Sigi, sorry, we have used your topic for this discussion, but it is reasonably important, hope you don't mind much...

I agree with Steve. The only reason I haven't tried it is because it seams too IT technical and not very user-friendly. May be Stive could help in setting up something like this, that we will be able to edit on the go, adding info to it (just like with Wiki)? When it is Internet based it can be used anywhere, any time.

I think it may be useful to the reasonably new and inexperienced collectors as a starting point in understanding the problem and as first ref. point. Ron, can you PM me on how to download the database to trial. I may be able to add a little bit, but I need to understand it a little bit more first. The only thing, I have Access 2002. Cheers!

Yet more interestin fakes sold on eBay: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/350759720836?nma=true&si=mOvMJzyrM3vP00bnAhQJm6rVsIE%3D&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2557&orig_cvip=true http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/321102487613?nma=true&si=mOvMJzyrM3vP00bnAhQJm6rVsIE%3D&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2557&orig_cvip=true http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251256387917?nma=true&si=mOvMJzyrM3vP00bnAhQJm6rVsIE%3D&rt=nc&_trksid=p4340.l2557&orig_cvip=true

Dear Ron, what you are trying to do is admirable and would be useful for others. But I am hardly that much of an expert on Siberian coins, and I doubt I can be just as passionate as you are in building the database. I wish you luck and all in that difficult endeavor.

Have you seen any original KM coins where "sobol" feet don't sit well on top of the fat lower line?

I'm afraid that for all 8000 described Russian coins you will be able to find at least one forgery. If you find one that doesn't have one, I bet 20 bucks that tomorrow this "unfortunate" fact will be changed. The task you propose, I can deem as incredibly difficult and probably useless, simply to the fact that I will never loose my 20 bucks. It will take too much time to describe all the fakes. I don't know about anyone else, but I personally don't want to become a specialist in fake coins. I'd like to stay true to original coins, real ones. I don't mind novodels, but the real ones, not the ones that can be passed for original coins in a rash for profit. For the above mentioned reasons, I'd suggest everyone who is passionate about Russian numismatics (be it original mint coins or Novodels) learn more about their Coins of choice (that's what I am trying to do). This is the only way that you will be able to tell any fakes from original coins, by knowing your original coins in and out. I believe it is a lot smaller portion of information that you need to digest and keep in mind. I dearly doubt that technology will ever allow to produce coin copies or fake close to 100% quality. The investment costs into this tech or into their production using such tech. will outweigh the benefits that fakes sellers will be hoping to rip. There are simple and effective ways of guarding yourself from buying a fake, after all, even though the fake coin that Sigi bought was good looking, it was reasonably easy to tell it apart from original coin, particularly if you had an opportunity of holding it in your hand. There are two little articles I've written on Siberian Coins on Russian forum, I also discuss authenticity in them:http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=103942&hl= & http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=104183&hl= This is a small translated extract that deals with the subject somewhat: "The most reliable way to determine the authenticity of a coin is to compare it to the original coin design (die) and agains the known original coin and it's description; analysis of its metal under microscopic magnification, measuring its weighing, presence of the correct old patina, and its crude mintage and poor quality (especially in the earlier coins) will point you in the wright direction. Overall impression of the coin should be pleasing to the experienced collector's eye, and of course the experience of using of all these methods in combination, or simply put - the numismatic "know-how" is your best tool. To understand the extent of the disaster with fakes, it is enough to look into the multi-purpose Internet auction sites that do not have control over the quality of stuff sold on them. Fakes (especially modern), are plentiful enough... and ugly... In his book "Fakes in Russian coins" Semenov, out of the 16 pages devoted to the fake copper coins' images, provides as much as one and a half pages for the images of fake "Siberian" coins. Rodionov: <...> Russian counterfeiters. Reading documents from the XIX c. on the history of our factories and the Altai scooping one destiny stonecutters Kolyvan, I almost in every archival inventory encountered a case of "fake coin producers...". Here's another example, that also explains why Russian numismatists don't like Novodels: Searching the coin auctions database I found 3 coins dated 1764 (the infamous probes!) that were sold as original coins on well scrutinised numismatic auctions, they also left their mark in the coin database of "Monetnyj Dvor"(МД). Among these three coins, visual examination of their photos conducted by Ermak (one of the Russian forum memebers) revealed no genuine originals, only disguised novodels. Here are these coins: Ermak: Kopek and Polushka - obvious Novodels. Denga has... very impressive cherry between the first and second leaf of the right, which is known to appeared on the originals only in 1776. This means that in presented coin one or two of the last digits were restroken in order to turn them into "rarities"." All I can add to this, Ron is that - No auction authentication commity, No grading company, No other collector (if only one) will ever be as good in finding out if the coin is a real coin or not. The only person who can do that really well is you. You are the one who spends 100s of dollaras paying for a coin. You are the one who should do the research, ask around, convince everyone around you and finally convince yourself that the coin is a genuine artifact, before you part with you money. As far as these coins do. If you spend hour looking at them and comparing them to other known original coin images and descriptions, you will be able to tell the originals from novodels and from fakes with a relative ease. The future is not as grim as you pained it in your posts, Ron. But only if you put some work into it. Cheers! Extant (Eugene)

Not everyone can access the image in that link, so I copied that coin picture and combined it with others for you to compare them easier. The coin on the link provided by Kopeikin is the better example of this coin I've seen so far. There are still many noticeable differences in design that may help with authenticating coin by the picture. Thank you!

Thank you I see what you mean!

Silly question - it is EM... but it is an overstrike of some sort?

1788 5 Kopecks - your oppinion? EM/AM? Sorry, photos original seller's photos. Thank you.

Another genuine coin from the same die set... Must have been a big hide out. By the way, Alex, I finally received the book on fakes today. Just picked it up, haven't even opened it yet. I'll let you know what I think about it a bit later, when have a chance to examine it. Cheers!

I have no idea about the other two, apart that they went through some prestige auctions in the last 10 years fetching high prices. I questioned their authenticity on Russian forum, as I didn't like their company, the fake coin, and was told that they are authentic, but the grounds for that were the above mentioned auction results...

This coin will be undergoing sale in Sydney in April along with these coins: These two roubles have seen European auctions in the past. The 2 k. is actually printed on the same page with Peter III Rouble... I have discussed the above 2 kopeck coin on Russian forum as I didn't like it and I thought it was strange that the owner of other reputable coins on sale, be it a notable collector, didn't protest that his coins are displayed with a fake coin. That may yet happen, but hasn't happened yet.. The 2K looks different if you compare it with the other known authentic coins. Before I contact the auction, I'd like to question the authenticity of the coin on the first picture once more, with your assistance. Can you please let me know what you think? Here are the scans of other authentic coins. Thank you.

Thank you for showing this thread Nice to see these resemblances...

There is also this one. One of them are for sale on Keunker at the moment I think, but the price is a bit too high for me... OK, found them:

Just thought of sharing with you a couple of my new acquisition: Swidish coins that possibly inspired design of Russian Denga and Armaturа coins...