BKB

I got 61MM, but it is so ugly, I never want to look at it... I am still missing the 68MM, 88 M -- M, and 95MM. I was lucky to purchase an 89MM some time ago, and my 61MM is from T. Hoiland. I was very close to buying a very nice 95MM (red and beautiful) some time in 2005-6, but I did not bid enough stopping at $5000. 68 I never found in proper condition, and 88 M--M -- there are so many fakes that I do not want to bother. A very rare coin now regularly appears at small auctions in Russia with die variations...

not bad, not bad at all . I only collect the MM series, but do not have any in this condition...

coin looks original. The mintage was huge (there are no clear records, due to all the fraud that went down) It was also bronze, which really ate those dies up. So, there is a very big number of different die pairs. Hard to find 2 coins from the same die pair . That said, this could be an original, or an altered original, or a fake made to look like a dug-up original. Edge would help, also it would be interesting to see what the coin really looks like (color, etc.) If the edge is ok, I would say original.

Dima, how is that kopek? I am not hopeful, given these crazy prices...

got it.

just checked it at work -- works ok. Do not know how to get photos...

it was good before.

Making $100 here was nothing. $100 in Ukraine in 1990's was a lot of $. I remember seing fakes of 1727 5 kop as far back as 1988.

It is like buying a designer bag on the secondary market -- fakes are just too damn profitable. I have a fake of 1793 em overstrike, and 10 kop siberian, where the only way to tell is the edge. Cannot tell they are fakes from just looking at the coin on the photo. I have seen overstrikes, where the only way to tell is to find a twin of the coin. I am not buying overstrikes anymore, unless there is either crazy provenance, or it is cheap enough not to care. With all due respect to auction houses (and sometimes none is due), most auction houses do not have strong experts on Russian material they sell. I have seen obvious fakes sold by pretty much all major auction houses. What about those that are not obvious? I did not say that it is impossible to form a judgment. It is just hard to do from the photos and by relying on auction houses or grading services. There is a very small number of people in the US selling russian coins that I would trust to be able to tell a fake from original for me -- Jim Elman, Mark Teller, and no one else comes to mind. Out of 3 major grading services, NGC makes the least mistakes, but not infallible by far. A few recent gradings of obvious fakes of yefimoks by NGC showed me that they bite off more than they can chew. PCGS and ANACS fail. In russia, there is MiM and Alexander, that I have never seen selling an obvious fake. I know a couple of guys in russia, who are very narrow experts and know enough about these new superfakes. However, even they are often unable to figure out whether a coin is fake just from photos. It appears that fugazi manufacturers are getting smart, and are assisted by knowledgeable collectors and utilize numismatic material from serious collections and museums. It is no longer chinese fakes, these are manufactured on very well tooled russian and ukrainian factories, utilizing state of the art copying equipment, some of which could be more advanced than equipment used on the official mint today. The above created an environment where most coins from unknown die pairs are labeled fakes at the outset. Then we wait for a coin to be seen by a few known specialists in that particular narrow area, and wait for a verdict. For example, there is now a new discovery of 1799 em polushka from an absolutely different die pair. It was thought to be a fake until it was seen by an expert in Ekaterinburg and an expert in Moscow. On the other hand, there is a 1762 kopeck that never graduated to original status... Thus, labeling the coin a fake at the outset works as a virus scan. When a very rare coin comes to the market, and there is no provenance, the same virus scan is triggered. And so on. Sorry for a long passage, but this is what is going on today. I respect your effort and willingness to help numismatic community. Photographs are good to compare for known die pairs. But, the analysis should only begin there. After all, how do you know if you are not comparing your coin to an image of a fake sold by an auction house? If we only stick to publications of GM collection, including Fenzi book, we are stuck with very limited database in terms of die variations. You can add to that auction sales pre 1970's, with reasonable safety. 1970 - 1980 is somewhat uncertain. 1980 - 1990 is dangerous. 1990 to present -- wild west... (IMHO, of course)

problem is, all grading services make mistakes. They do not keep up with the technological progress, so to speak. For instance, a decent platinum fake can only be told apart from original by metal composition testing. Also, there is a new line of copper fakes (including the patterns and novodels) that they cannot distinguish. same goes for overstruck coins. I am not even talking about yefimoks -- those even the best experts cannot tell apart from fakes. We are at the point where the only way to tell a fake from original, is to find identical twins of the fakes. There is a number of examples of this garbage sold at reputable auctions. Images are good to be able to find last generation fakes. But, those are still around. As for the alert level, I think an educated collector today should view any coin as fake until proven real (IMHO) That will save a lot of money and grief.

1841 is still very nice and rare. Very nice coppers you have there. I would like to see that 1849 set. I am only missing 1 kop myself, but Gutten Czapski mark adds charm...

Too bad. I would love to see it upclose...

I cannot contain myself!!!! Please make a photo of the coin. Please, please, please. Medals database can wait -- this would be a great discovery! I am positive that I had never seen 1842 spb sold at auction anywhere, and I try to follow copper coins. So does Steve, and a few others here. No one here I spoke to ever saw this coin... As a point on forgeries -- most forgeries today cannot be discovered by a simple comparison of images. They are true copies of the original. Even laminations are faked. A lot of those were sold at reputable auctions and are in serious collections now. For example, the 2 kop AM fakes that were discovered only because there were twins on the market. The word has it that there are copies of gold and silver coins made from coins in GIM, that were accepted and bought as originals by professionals. Comparison will only let you discover the old, crude fakes...

never mind, found it, if it is on coins.su Real experts did not speak up for or against it... Did you show it to anyone in person?

I do not know if it is too late, but is it possible to get a link to the forum with negative opinions?

nevermind. I checked it and it is not in there. But, here it is: http://coins.su/forum/index.php?showtopic=40247&view=&hl=1820%20&fromsearch=1 the underdate is also not identified...

an overdate. Not clear what the underdate was. Did you check the supplement for 1820 overdates?

can you do a closeup?

There is a 1841 spb 2 kop. Never heard of 1842... Would be interesting to see a high res photos of the date/mintmark portion. Should be an overdate.

wow!

cannot get my hands on any 1811 and 1812... This was my goal initially -- I only collected coins from 1810 - 1812. However, at some point it became boring and I expanded.

Just a few coppers :-) Will not show 1810 puli, because it is painful to look at...

these I found around the house. There is more that I could not find... I thought I had one 1734 that is not overstruck (the one that has no traces), but the edge gave it away when I looked at it today... Sorry for picture quality -- no tripod.

could be a novodel. After all, it is your coin -- call it what you want :-)

The mintmark is crooked. Almost impossible for this series of novodels. No overdate. I do not see any trace of doublestrike, but that could be due to image quality. Anyway, I would rather get the original in this condition (less cleaning, of course :-) ) than a novodel. Also, original retains a bit of value even with harsh cleaning. Novodel does not (IMXO) MY notes on novodels of this series: 1. Overdate is common, for they used one set of dies to produce multiple dates. 2. Doublestrike is common, for they were done on medallic presses and that was done to achieve much higher relief and better quality. 3. Design is perfect and minting is perfect.