BKB

If what they have on the cove is diagnostic of what they have inside, then I doubt that there is any value to this book except as bad toilet paper.

yep, an overdate

Get into Tea Forte, and we can talk

2 kop 1797 no m/m is no good

depends on the tea...

I will make a copy

I just checked -- last page of Ilyin -- error is corrected. Both are novodels.

I think paid 110 for it on Markov... Do not remember exactly.

These I have for trade. Would look at wings down in comparable condition. Also have an ugly 1797am 1/4 from for trade from Markov's auction somewhere...

Yep,

Thisw story is common. If you "flip" through GM, you will see that the whole 1830 spb series are novodels listed as originals... And, there are many more examples there, I am sure... There was an article on the history of novodels. Also, from the fact of 1722 2 ruble,as well as novodels of most medals, -- we know that those were produced pretty early on.

1798 and 1797 1/4 in vf are cheap and easy. It is hard not to find them on ebay in 1 month. In AU they are hard, but still not very expensive -- $150 or so each... 1797 no mm is harder. But, also is not too hard. Although, when I say that, I mean it in comparrison to other harder P1 coins. In comparisson to N2, everything is hard.

To add to what steve said: even KM coins (less 2 kop) are very difficult in decent condition. There are a lot of dugup rotten ones in russia, but I am still looking for most of them in decent gdarde. Also, am polushkas and dengas in good condition are also superhard. Narrow cypher (1797 am 2 kop) got a bit easier, but there is one sypher variant of that coin that is impossible to find. 1799 em 1/4 did not become easier in good condition. As for a rotten coin -- it would still be a lot of $ to purchase. 1799 em 1/2 is very hard in good condition. 1800 and 1801 em minors are becoming extremely hard, but not as impossible as they used to be. Other than that -- everything is pretty easy.

If you count different design (completely) like in 1810 em -- then, there is a whole bunch...

my avatar -- 1782 km

Sigi, I think that in order to discuss the possibility of this coin, there should be: 1) much better photos of this coin; 2) photos of the first and second "1" in good resolution. Otherwise, it is like discussing a UFO photograph. Someone shows a cellphone photo, that is not even that good for a cell phone, of a unique coin, and there are 2 pages of discussion... No wonder people on russian forum do not take this seriously, -- their reaction is completely justified. After all, this coin should not exist (as you well know). Therefore, one must do a damn better job than that crappy photo to prove otherwise. Just my 2c. P.S. Steve, I am 100% sure there is an error in Ilyin -- a 10 ruble coin would definitely show up at some point, with 40 -- 150 ruble coins popping up from time to time... Novodel with different edge.

No, the crown is definitely NOT better looking...

The crown and "8" in date are exceptionally nice...

This is crap.

What do I know?.. I would not be able to tell the difference before, if a taler was used as a planchette for 1704. And, that 1741 is also very nice. The PR of these items show that i am not alone.

very good coin! love it.

I could make a good argument using the sale of a $300 fake for $17,000 + commission at auction last year, but I would probably get another letter from the auction proprietor... The only good thing about ebay: 1) Normally fakes are obvious, like this "Novodel" -- just ask for better photos; 2) The coins carry smaller price tag in comparison to auctions. However, the fakes that scare me are the ones that we cannot recognize so easily. It appears that high level forgeries have been sold by auction houses in US (and, at this point, I will say ALL auction houses) and abroad. Good examples are 1704 rubles, 1741 rubles of Ioan, Yefimoks, fake copper patterns and novodels, 1728 rubles, all sorts of commemorative coins, coins with plain edge, overstrikes (1796 em, 1791em, all 5 kop and 2 kop am's). You got a factory in Rostov producing high quality fakes. You got an outfit in Moscow that sells 1704, 1741 rubles for $150 -- 300 a pop, which were actually sold for huge amounts of $ at auction here and in europe. You got a ukrainian outfit that turns out copper pattern and novodel fakes. These things (good fakes) have been made since as early as 1980's. A fake 1712 ruble traces back to a 1991 SwissBank sale. By the way, it was graded by NGC, and later sold at 3 successive auctions culminating in a $18,000 price tag... Sometimes it feels that it is a miracle to buy an original, no matter what you are paying for it...

looks like the same coin

I have been saying for some time now that certain types sold today are 70-90% fake. Those of you that frequent russian forums, know this very well.

I think you nailed it -- obvious cast copy.