BKB Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 This coin is offered for sale on a Russian site. Starting bid is roughly $30,000. I do not remember if I ever saw this coin being sold. Interesting enough, it drew no discussion... Such coin (SPB coin with Moscow edge) to my knowledge is only listed for 1742 and as a novodel for 1744. TO me it looks convincing. New discovery? What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 What's wrong with the inscription around the eagle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 What's wrong with the inscription around the eagle? It's traces of the inscription of the undertype (almost certainly a rouble of Ioann III). It's a fantastic strike, if genuine. If it's a fake, it is very well done. The overstriking program, judging by the number of 1742 and 1743 overstrikes found, seems to have been winding down in 1743. Bearing in mind the purpose of the program, which was to remove Ioann's image from public view, that could be accomplished without re-edging. So there is no reason why such a coin could not exist. It looks it might be real to me based on the pictures because I don't see anything obviously wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Where's the Rubl' inscription from the overstrike die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 Where's the Rubl' inscription from the overstrike die? Good question. Maybe the coin is of varying thickness or the dies were not fully aligned? The striking pressure seems greatest in the center and weakest at the edges, which is what could be expected when overstriking without a collar. It is possible that this could be a genuine coin overstruck with false dies. If so, it is well made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 This coin is offered for sale on a Russian site. Starting bid is roughly $30,000. I do not remember if I ever saw this coin being sold. Interesting enough, it drew no discussion... Such coin (SPB coin with Moscow edge) to my knowledge is only listed for 1742 and as a novodel for 1744. TO me it looks convincing. New discovery? What do you think? Not sure if what i have to add is important to the discussin here BKB, But Take a look at p107 of Markov Mail Bid Auction #11 Lot 732, Rouble 1742 MMD with mixed Moscow AND St Pete. edge, described as not recorded in any reference, and "apparantly UNIQUE and of the highest importance" also lot 734, 1743 cnb, struck over cnb rouble of Ivan III also cnb, with date 1741 visible. Both are beauties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted August 18, 2009 Report Share Posted August 18, 2009 This coin is offered for sale on a Russian site. Starting bid is roughly $30,000. I do not remember if I ever saw this coin being sold. Interesting enough, it drew no discussion... Such coin (SPB coin with Moscow edge) to my knowledge is only listed for 1742 and as a novodel for 1744. TO me it looks convincing. New discovery? What do you think? This ruble is a one of the highest importance in russian numismatics ! There is an interestng article about it of a friend of mine at the link below (text in russian and it explains in most the appearance of such issues). Who needs a basic translation of an article - be my guest to request it http://www.rucollect.ru/news/221-news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Not sure if what i have to add is important to the discussin here BKB, But Take a look at p107 of Markov Mail Bid Auction #11 Lot 732, Rouble 1742 MMD with mixed Moscow AND St Pete. edge, described as not recorded in any reference, and "apparantly UNIQUE and of the highest importance" described as not recorded in any reference ?? - untrue. Uzdenikov, 2000, page 33-34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Mr. V., The one your friend is talking about is rare, but not as rare as this one if this one is original. It is well known now that striking Elisabeth rubles on the rubles of Ioann continued past 1743. However, the edge thing makes this coin an unrecorded rarity. Legend around the eagle is crazy. Would be interesting to see better photos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 Mr. V., The one your friend is talking about is rare, but not as rare as this one if this one is original. It is well known now that striking Elisabeth rubles on the rubles of Ioann continued past 1743. However, the edge thing makes this coin an unrecorded rarity. Legend around the eagle is crazy. Would be interesting to see better photos. and this: Сохранились надписи на гурте и санкт-петербургские и московские. Очень редко рубль Иоанна с петербургским гуртом попадал в партию рублей, предназначенных для перечеканки на московском монетном дворе и наоборот. Then Uzdenikov referenced that Ivan ruble were minted of 693181 rubles, from the beginnig of exchange during the Elizabeth reuign up to june 17 1745 were received from population 665158 rubles; from june 17 1745 up to december 1751 another 4231 rubles!! Read both reference: rucollect and uzdenikov 2000 page 33-34 ! In addtion, your first post does not say anything about a high rarity but starts discussion only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 This coin is offered for sale on a Russian site. Starting bid is roughly $30,000. I do not remember if I ever saw this coin being sold. Interesting enough, it drew no discussion... Such coin (SPB coin with Moscow edge) to my knowledge is only listed for 1742 and as a novodel for 1744. TO me it looks convincing. New discovery? What do you think? That an Ivan III Moscow rouble would be restruck at St. Petersburg in 1743 is hardly surprising. I do have a problem with the reverse, however, as the legend on the left, ROUBLE, is out of line with the word COIN (MOHETA in Russian). I do not understand how this could happen without showing some problems with the eagle itself. Dies do get out of register (parallel) but to do so in this manner seems puzzling. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 That an Ivan III Moscow rouble would be restruck at St. Petersburg in 1743 is hardlysurprising. I do have a problem with the reverse, however, as the legend on the left, ROUBLE, is out of line with the word COIN (MOHETA in Russian). I do not understand how this could happen without showing some problems with the eagle itself. Dies do get out of register (parallel) but to do so in this manner seems puzzling. RWJ Even the tip of the scepter is well-defined, so it seems reasonable that the "Rubl'" on either side of it should appear as well. It looks like there might be some traces of overstriking in the tips of the tailfeathers, but otherwise the eagle appears undisturbed. It might be significant that the area of misalignment of the words is opposite the weak mintmark and the "BCEPOCC" portion of the obverse legend (which appears to show evidence of the undertype) would be opposite the "Rubl'". At $30,000.00, such a coin might well attract talented forgers. The style on this piece looks faithful to original coins, but the legend is troubling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 I do not understand how this could happen without showing some problems with the eagle itself. Dies doget out of register (parallel) but to do so in this manner seems puzzling. RWJ The whole first third of the XVIII century coin dies were cut by hands, or for some of them used punches with negative impression of different elements...The main difference in coin design was not the same as a mutual arrangement of images and legends - why - because it was conditioned a separate placement of images on working dies and later the legends using its own lettering or numeric punches. All these processes returned so many errors and were determined by Uzdenikov as a mint defects. Similar in this case plus overstrike details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 That an Ivan III Moscow rouble would be restruck at St. Petersburg in 1743 is hardlysurprising. I do have a problem with the reverse, however, as the legend on the left, ROUBLE, is out of line with the word COIN (MOHETA in Russian). I do not understand how this could happen without showing some problems with the eagle itself. Dies do get out of register (parallel) but to do so in this manner seems puzzling. RWJ " Could be the letters "R" and "U" are remnants of Ioann ruble and the Elisabeth "R and U" did not strike up. During the overstriking the coins were aligned in accordance with the details of the new coin (see IgorS ruble of Catherine a few posts down) in order to make sure that the design of the undercoin is less obvious if showing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted August 19, 2009 Report Share Posted August 19, 2009 "Could be the letters "R" and "U" are remnants of Ioann ruble and the Elisabeth "R and U" did not strike up. During the overstriking the coins were aligned in accordance with the details of the new coin (see IgorS ruble of Catherine a few posts down) in order to make sure that the design of the undercoin is less obvious if showing... This is possible but a problem remains with the eagle, which is presumably the St. Petersburg version. The Moscow eagle would have been reasonably close but not the same and would not have lined up in the dies. The eagle should then show signs of differences but I do not see this in the photographs. There is a second problem. The end of the scepter is close to the lettering as on a normal St. Petersburg rouble but the Moscow pieces, at least the two in my data base, are further away. It remains a puzzle. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 "Could be the letters "R" and "U" are remnants of Ioann ruble and the Elisabeth "R and U" did not strike up. During the overstriking the coins were aligned in accordance with the details of the new coin (see IgorS ruble of Catherine a few posts down) in order to make sure that the design of the undercoin is less obvious if showing... What you are saying makes sense. Look at the distance between U and B - I do not think it is possible that someone punched in those letters into the die like that.... unless the person was very drunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Before any further discussion please see boston reprint of Georgii Mikhailovich page 172 (unpaginated) top right ruble 1743 overstriking of course, number #2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Could be the letters "R" and "U" are remnants of Ioann ruble and the Elisabeth "R and U" did not strike up. This area corresponds with the weakly struck mintmark and the area of the obverse legend which shows the most evidence of the undertype, which supports your suggestion that it is part of the reverse undertype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 During the overstriking the coins were aligned in accordance with the details of the new coin (see IgorS ruble of Catherine a few posts down) in order to make sure that the design of the undercoin is less obvious if showing... Evidence of this is the alignment of BCEPOCC in the obverse legend and what appears to be the remains of a "4" (from 1741) above the "4" in 1743. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mummytrol Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Evidence of this is the alignment of BCEPOCC in the obverse legend and what appears to be the remains of a "4" (from 1741) above the "4" in 1743. Look like some a.. too real SPB coin and struck reverse with a counterfeit die. Thank you. Mummytrol ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Maybe I don't have enough examples to compare this with a previous 1741 ruble but does anyone have a problem with the location of the mintmark against the portrait of Elizabeth as well as the alignment of the legend? If this is of any use, I have another odd example of the legend that appeared to be completely messed up even though it's double struck: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Before any further discussion please see boston reprint of Georgii Mikhailovich page 172 (unpaginated) top right ruble 1743 overstriking of course, number #2 Seen it. What is your point? Why shout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted August 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 Maybe I don't have enough examples to compare this with a previous 1741 ruble but does anyone have a problem with the location of the mintmark against the portrait of Elizabeth as well as the alignment of the legend? If this is of any use, I have another odd example of the legend that appeared to be completely messed up even though it's double struck: no problem with placement of mintmark. see GM on Ioann: plate 1 coin #5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 a point is that GM overstrike ruble look very similar to one being discussed over here and there is no problem with its eagle as was pointed out earlier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted August 20, 2009 Report Share Posted August 20, 2009 a point is that GM overstrike ruble look very similar to one being discussed over here and there is no problem with its eagle as was pointed out earlier Unfortunately the coin illustrated by the Grand Duke is a normal overstruck piece and does not apply to the present coin under discussion. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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