BKB Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 I received my long awaited (interesting variety) 1726 ruble. It has the most curious edge. Should be edge #6 \\\\\\\, but instead, it looks like this: |||||| I do not believe that it is possible to tell whether this coin is a fake or real from the pictures, for it was heavily tooled at some point of time. But I would appreciate any opinion on the subject. The coin is stamped, not cast or galvano. (90 degree angles are present, ring is fine, metal cracks, etc.) It does not have a new feel. I guess, my question is: Did anyone ever see an edge like this on a Catherine I ruble? I would so very much hate it, should this coin turn out to be a fake, but I would rather get to the bottom of it when I can still return it. Thank you for your input. Karl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marv Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Of course I'm not an expert, but the coin doesn't look like any of the Uzdenikov types for 1726. In particular, the portrait of Catherine seems too pudgy. The coin in Uzd. shows a pupil in the eye I think, but there is none on your coin; the curlyque on the on the bottom of the letter "tz" in "Imperitritza" seems to go the wrong way based on Uzd. Her cheek jowl seems to have a longer outline in Uzd. than your coin. Her expression just seems a bit bloated compared to the Group V-B picture in Uzd. Plus, Uzd. says the edge either slants to the left or right, not straight across. Bitkin might be a better reference, but I don't have it. Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Did anyone ever see an edge like this on a Catherine I ruble? I would so very much hate it, should this coin turn out to be a fake, but I would rather get to the bottom of it when I can still return it. I can't recall seeing such a coin but that might not mean much. Is there a chance that the coin might be overstruck on a foreign thaler and this is the edge of the undertype? If memory is correct, SPB mint was still doing this at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Supposedly if this is an overstruck coin, there is some odd pattern that I have been seeing that people had a tendency to try and remove the underlayer image by polishing them off. In particular, some oddness remain on the top of the double headed eagle if you notice. For some reason the Spanish patagon comes right in my head but I am not making any claims right now - it does warrant an investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 The coin would not be in Uzd. Well, I said that it was not a common type, and that is why I dislike the idea of this coin being fake. The coin is Bit.2 #152. Very rare type without the hair lock on left shoulder. I do not think it was struck on any other coin, at least I magnified it x40 and there is no trace of anything. I am mostly puzzled by the edge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 The coin would not be in Uzd. Well, I said that it was not a common type, and that is why I dislike the idea of this coin being fake. The coin is Bit.2 #152. Very rare type without the hair lock on left shoulder. I do not think it was struck on any other coin, at least I magnified it x40 and there is no trace of anything. I am mostly puzzled by the edge... Looks like Gorny had one in their last sale (173), Lot 8145. You can see traces of the edge but I'm not sure if there's enough to tell. I have images if interested. Best Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Thank you Steve. They did have a similar coin. (Slightly diff. portrait and totally different eagle) Never thought to check if the edge is visible -- just checked. Edge looks similar, but it is very hard to tell. I will check Alexander auction, -- they photograph the edge. I hope they have an spb 1726. in one of their sales. I only have a Moscow ruble. Could someone also photograph the edge of his 1726 spb ruble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Thank you Steve. They did have a similar coin. (Slightly diff. portrait and totally different eagle) Never thought to check if the edge is visible -- just checked. Edge looks similar, but it is very hard to tell. I will check Alexander auction, -- they photograph the edge. I hope they have an spb 1726. in one of their sales. I only have a Moscow ruble. Could someone also photograph the edge of his 1726 spb ruble? Alexander Sale 5, Lot 38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Alexander Sale 5, Lot 38 You are the best!!!! Edge is somewhat similar, but with more tilt. But it is 50 kop, not 1 ruble. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 You are the best!!!! Edge is somewhat similar, but with more tilt. But it is 50 kop, not 1 ruble. :-) 50 kopeck...rouble...it's all silver isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 What kind of edging does the Spanish patagon have? Here might be something relevant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted November 28, 2008 Report Share Posted November 28, 2008 Since the coin was tooled, I think the same applies to the edge. Very often on the worn coins of this period the edge is also worn off. BKB, is it possible that the edge was reapplied by hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Since the coin was tooled, I think the same applies to the edge.Very often on the worn coins of this period the edge is also worn off. BKB, is it possible that the edge was reapplied by hand? It is possible, but I am not sure how it could have been done. In some places it is very faint, just like a very worn edge on some silver coins. No trace of filing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 What kind of edging does the Spanish patagon have? Here might be something relevant I think it is plain edge. At least most (if not all) talers of the period have palin edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 It is possible, but I am not sure how it could have been done. In some places it is very faint, just like a very worn edge on some silver coins. No trace of filing. Agree with Igor .Clear visible tooling on obverse, reverse and edge . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted November 29, 2008 Report Share Posted November 29, 2008 Agree with Igor .Clear visible tooling on obverse, reverse and edge . Rarenum, what do you see in the edge that tells you it is tooled? If it is applied by hand, then why are there no visible filing marks? The only explanation that I can think of is that the edge of a knife or chisel has been pressed against the edge of the coin. But if it was done that way, then I would expect to see little mounds of displaced metal around the edge of the rim, but I don't see any such evidence in the photos. I'm not saying you are mistaken. I just don't know what you are seeing, but I am missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 You are the best!!!! Edge is somewhat similar, but with more tilt. But it is 50 kop, not 1 ruble. :-) Gorny 157 Mar 2007, Lot 4199 2800EUR (a rouble, this time) Obverse: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 ...and the reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 It is possible, but I am not sure how it could have been done. In some places it is very faint, just like a very worn edge on some silver coins. No trace of filing. I have a rouble of Peter II; the edge is 90% ///////////// and 10% ||||||||| . Those 10% are obviously tooled and re-done at some point. Sorry, can not make a scan - NGC put it in a holder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 I have a rouble of Peter II; the edge is 90% ///////////// and 10% ||||||||| . Those 10% are obviously tooled and re-done at some point. Sorry, can not make a scan - NGC put it in a holder They put it in a holder with a tooled edge?! Someone must like you there a lot!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 ...and the reverse Thank you Steve. Well this time you managed to find whole ruble, not just half of it. But, seriously, this is not the same variety. While portrait die looks the same, the eagle side is very different. Too bad cannot see the edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Thank you Steve. Well this time you managed to find whole ruble, not just half of it. But, seriously, this is not the same variety. While portrait die looks the same, the eagle side is very different. Too bad cannot see the edge. Ah. I thought we were looking for Bust-Right, no hair lock on left shoulder. Yours is Bit152-R3. The one I showed is Bit151, also R3. OK, I will find one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 They put it in a holder with a tooled edge?! Someone must like you there a lot!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Ah. I thought we were looking for Bust-Right, no hair lock on left shoulder. Yours is Bit152-R3. The one I showed is Bit151, also R3.OK, I will find one Does Bitkin mention any auction sales for this type? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted November 30, 2008 Report Share Posted November 30, 2008 Does Bitkin mention any auction sales for this type? Yes...Gorny 110, and Markov NY VI. I have both catalogues. Thanks Igor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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