mummytrol Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 mummytrol, you know you aren't being very helpful at the moment - I don't see what is wrong at the moment nor do the others. How exactly can you be sure that it's definately a counterfeit instead of some varieties that is not known or listed? More than 200 years past. That is the best evidence. Thank you. Mummytrol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mummytrol Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 MummyTROLL, I have looked at a reference picture and I strongly suggest that you should take your own advice and carefully examine this reference picture which I posted earlier for your education. If you do, you will see that the downward-pointing feathers you keep talking about are quite consistent with the example shown in the Grand Duke's corpus. Your apparent unwillingness to engage in any meaningful discussion regarding this matter causes me to wonder what the purpose of your posts to this forum is, other than an apparent intention to spread misinformation and serve as an irritant to other forum participants. Dear Griv Na! it is just my opinion what I WANTED TO TELL TO THE COIN PEOPLE. If you do not want to know it let me know. I just told you what I can see. Thank you! Mummytrol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 Dear friend 5 kopecks looks like a regular fake. Thakn you. Mummytrol! Are you sure? Can you provide us a scan of another "regular fake"? I am just curious to see one, because this 5 kop. 1804 looks to be genuine to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 Dear Griv Na! it is just my opinion what I WANTED TO TELL TO THE COIN PEOPLE. If you do not want to know it let me know. I just told you what I can see. Thank you! Mummytrol. *plonk* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 28, 2007 Report Share Posted October 28, 2007 Dear Griv Na! it is just my opinion what I WANTED TO TELL TO THE COIN PEOPLE. If you do not want to know it let me know. I just told you what I can see. Thank you! Mummytrol. None of us are particularly keen about reading mere suppositions, opinions or assumptions when it comes to matters of authenticity of the coins we collect. Either "put up, or shut up". *plonk* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mummytrol Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 None of us are particularly keen about reading mere suppositions, opinions or assumptions when it comes to matters of authenticity of the coins we collect. Either "put up, or shut up". *plonk* So? Why all of you asking of that???????????? THANK YOU. Mummytrol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 Well made copies were on the market a couple of years ago. The only way (as far as I remember) to tell the difference - absence of lines in the crown and a slightly different crown shape... Feathers down variety. Just like the first one in the post... The variety without the lines is not in the books. 200 years are indeed enough time to place it there. The crown is crooked too. The left side is... grivna1726, there are quite a few discrepancies between the picture you have provided and a shown thing. Please compare for yourself - starting from the lines in the crown. There are other differences too. May be mummytrol is referring to the old discussions on the russian forums were the similar "feather down" varieties with the funny crowns have been discussed, shown and acknowledged to be fakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 Well made copies were on the market a couple of years ago. The only way (as far as I remember) to tell the difference - absence of lines in the crown and a slightly different crown shape... Feathers down variety. Just like the first one in the post... The variety without the lines is not in the books. 200 years are indeed enough time to place it there. The crown is crooked too. The left side is... grivna1726, there are quite a few discrepancies between the picture you have provided and a shown thing. Please compare for yourself - starting from the lines in the crown. There are other differences too. Hello And986, Thank you for your contribution to the discussion. You are correct. The example I show from the Grand Duke's corpus is not an exact match to Dooly's coin (but then I never said that it was). The question is whether the differences are significant or not. It is probably worth noting that my major interest is in coins of Peter I to Alexander I (and not so much the later coins). After 28 years of collecting Russian coins, the one thing that I have learned is that there is an almost infinite number of minor varieties in the coinage and the further back in time you go, the more complex the series and the greater the number of variants becomes. So, while an exact die match would be stronger, the fact that these deviations from the published examples exist is not, in my opinion, sufficient to condemn it. Although I am not a copper specialist (I collect all metals except platinum, though I do have a single platinum 3 roubles to show the type), other collectors who do specialize in the copper coins have also not been worried by these variations. This does not prove the coin is genuine and no-one who is a competent authenticator would ever declare a coin genuine based simply on a photo. However, they might reasonably say that it is probably genuine. May be mummytrol is referring to the old discussions on the russian forums were the similar "feather down" varieties with the funny crowns have been discussed, shown and acknowledged to be fakes. I have no idea what Mummytrol is basing his/her comments on and repeated efforts on my part to find out have been fruitless. The only thing that he/she has said to support his/her contention that the coin is false is a vague comment that it is shown by the downward pointing feathers. No mention was made of the crown, lines, positioning or anything else. The only thing mentioned was the feathers. The GM plate coin demonstrates that downward-pointing feathers are normal for 1804-EM 5k coins and pricing in Bitkin indicates that the eagle with downward feathers is the most common eagle type for 1804-EM. As such, downward feathers are the type that are normally seen for this coin. I have repeatedly asked Mummytrol to expand on what he/she sees wrong with this coin and he/she has consistently failed to do so. My conclusion is that Mummytrol is not interested in any real discussion of the matter and is behaving in a manner consistent with that of an internet troll. Consequently, I have no interest in any further interaction with this person and have blocked all messages from him/her to save myself the aggravation of reading them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 This is my 1804 5 kopeks. Not too sure if it's useful for any comparision. I do see some issues with the crown, but again, have no idea about all possible varities known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 About 2 years ago (or even earlier) some Ukrainian factory or shop started producing fake Alexander I 5 kopek pieces. Being that I do not collect this series and I do not own any of them -- I am not an expert. However, I do collect copper of the period and I know a thing or two. To make a long story short, I was completely fooled by the photographs of thiose fakes. Thej just looked so right and great. However, when I held one in my hands afterwards, it was obvious that the coin was a fake. It just did not feel right. There was something wrong in the sharpness of the coin's edge and the line created by the angle between the field and the edge. I would not buy a 5 kop of Alexander I, be it 1802, 1810, or even 180. just from the images. I do not care if it looks perfect or if the price is great. Without making any affirmative statements as to the authenticity of this particular coin, I would like to note that this coin has some features near the edge that remind me of the Ukrainian fakes. Maybe a coincidence. Could the owner of the coin please feel along the edge/field line with a fingertip to see if there are any places on it that are very sharp? Also, how does the edge feel to touch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 About 2 years ago (or even earlier) some Ukrainian factory or shop started producing fake Alexander I 5 kopek pieces. Being that I do not collect this series and I do not own any of them -- I am not an expert. However, I do collect copper of the period and I know a thing or two. To make a long story short, I was completely fooled by the photographs of thiose fakes. Thej just looked so right and great. However, when I held one in my hands afterwards, it was obvious that the coin was a fake. It just did not feel right. There was something wrong in the sharpness of the coin's edge and the line created by the angle between the field and the edge. I would not buy a 5 kop of Alexander I, be it 1802, 1810, or even 180. just from the images. I do not care if it looks perfect or if the price is great. Without making any affirmative statements as to the authenticity of this particular coin, I would like to note that this coin has some features near the edge that remind me of the Ukrainian fakes. Maybe a coincidence. Could the owner of the coin please feel along the edge/field line with a fingertip to see if there are any places on it that are very sharp? Also, how does the edge feel to touch? http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showto...268&hl=1802 this a the link for the topic about my fake 1802 5 kopek. Does the coin of the current topic pass the "ringing" test, mentioned by Sigi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 Hi friends, I still believe that dooly's coin is genuine! As has been said, innumerous mini-variants are encountered. The overweight doesn't matter either. See here mine, bought about 12 years ago at a very important auction sale of a Russia collection conducted by the late A.G.VAN DER DUSSEN in Maastricht, Netherlands. Weight of my coin is 51,6g. At the ring test it says "click" like all my other 19 coins of the type, both EM and KM. My picture can be enlarged and the enlarged picture can be enlarged another time. After more than 30 years of collecting the big Russian coppers you get an idea on how they look and if I still were lacking the 1804, I'd ask dooly to sell me his wonderful coin. Let's not be hypersuspicious. Sigi By sigistenz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 sigi, your coin is definately interesting - I have never seen a coin with the rings just fading away on the obverse and yet have strong rims - perhaps that area is being overgreased??? Thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 What a beauty!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 WOW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 Thank you BKB for reminding about the Ukrainian fakes. This is exactly it! For me - 100% now the thing is fake. 2 years ago exactly this "feather down" variety without lines and crooked crown and a few other details flooded the market. Sigi's coin is nice and just confirms the obvious difference. There are other details present on the thing clearly showing it is a Ukrainian production of the 90's. I do not think it is appropriate to reveal them on the public forums. What was said is enough. Otherwise the next production of that factory will be undistinguishable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 See here mine, bought about 12 years ago at a very important auction sale of a Russia collection conducted by the late A.G.VAN DER DUSSEN in Maastricht, Netherlands. Sigi, that is a truly wonderful coin. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 May be mummytrol is referring to the old discussions on the russian forums were the similar "feather down" varieties with the funny crowns have been discussed, shown and acknowledged to be fakes. Hello And986, Can you provide a link to these forum discussions? I am not fluent in Russian, but some people here are and might find the old discussions on the Russian forums you mention helpful. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 http://staraya-moneta.ru/forum/viewtopic.p...;highlight=1802 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 http://staraya-moneta.ru/forum/viewtopic.p...;highlight=1802 Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mummytrol Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 http://staraya-moneta.ru/forum/viewtopic.p...;highlight=1802 I see some coinpeople share my opinion. THANK YOU! PEOPLE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 Thank you BKB for reminding about the Ukrainian fakes. This is exactly it! For me - 100% now the thing is fake. 2 years ago exactly this "feather down" variety without lines and crooked crown and a few other details flooded the market. Sigi's coin is nice and just confirms the obvious difference. There are other details present on the thing clearly showing it is a Ukrainian production of the 90's. I do not think it is appropriate to reveal them on the public forums. What was said is enough. Otherwise the next production of that factory will be undistinguishable... Hi, I must say that I never heard about those Ukrainian fakes. I would be much obliged to see a picture of them. I do not recall having seen anything on the topic in the JOURNAL OF THE RUSSIAN NUMISMATIC SOCIETY which publishes fakes as soon as recognized. Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 Hi, I must say that I never heard about those Ukrainian fakes. I would be much obliged to see a picture of them. I do not recall having seen anything on the topic in the JOURNAL OF THE RUSSIAN NUMISMATIC SOCIETY which publishes fakes as soon as recognized. Sigi Pictures (a few of them) are in the link I've provided. Vancouver's fleamarket is full of various Chinese fakes. Any country you wish. Chinatown's stores are selling them too. I'm sorry but I do not follow your logic... Why would you expect that this kind of junk will be mentioned anywhere? I've never seen that journal... Is it some kind of encyclopedia with thousands of fakes listed inside of a thick heavy book issued daily? The army of journal's agents penetrating each and every country checking behind the shoulder of everyone approaching machinery capable of making something that looks like coins... examining every souvenir sold to the tourist and carefully cataloging them for the above journal... Happy Halloween Please do not be offended. I'm just kidding. The JOURNAL OF THE RUSSIAN NUMISMATIC SOCIETY is a respectful magazine as far as I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 Hi, I must say that I never heard about those Ukrainian fakes. I would be much obliged to see a picture of them. I do not recall having seen anything on the topic in the JOURNAL OF THE RUSSIAN NUMISMATIC SOCIETY which publishes fakes as soon as recognized. Sigi And986 provided a link to the topic with photographs of Ukrainian fakes. Photographs on pages 1 and 2 as well as 1810 on page 5 are exactly what you are looking for :-) As to RNS -- the fakes published there are poblished with at least a 2 - 3 year delay at best. (IMXO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 ... THANK YOU. Mummytrol. I have just one request for mummytrol, if I may. Please stop typing "thank you. mummytrol." at the end of each of your post. We know who you are by the the manner in which forum displays posts. "thank you. mummytrol" over and over and over again makes it sound like a broken record, especially since the rest of the information in your posts is so short. I do not mean it as an insult of any kind, just a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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