Drusus Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 read this on another forum, thought I would pass it along: "I was browsing through an old French dental journal today when I came across an article which was illustrated with Roman and Byzantine coins. My attention was of course caught, and I read the article with growing horror as I realised its import. Apparently some time in 1906 a rich American tourist, one Henry Rikelseenk, was in Naples and had broken his upper dentures. Presumably wanting to have something a bit different and distinctive to replace them he decided to have the replacement made entirely from gold, specifically from the gold of antique coins. Rather than simply melting them down to supply the metal (which would have been bad enough) he asked the dental technician to cut the portraits out of nine aurei, solidi, and an Augustale of Frederick II from Sicily: apparently several American technicians had refused to do this, but eventually the one in Naples agreed to perform the act of vandalism. The portraits were curved slightly to make them the proper shape, and soldered into a curved bridge, all the while being careful not to damage them. Luckily (?) he was sufficiently impressed by the magnitude of the task (he was destroying coins which at the time were valued at 30,000 francs equivalent to about £1,000/ $5,000 even then) to photograph the coins prior to the vandalism, so we do have a record of the coins, and also the resultant bridgework." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KoRnholio Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Obviously this started the whole rap/black-culture "grill" fad... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 I bet that he was incinerated after his death - only to make the destruction of coins complete... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristofer Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 That's ridiculous and demonstrates complete arrogance and disregard for the history and cultures that these coins represent, that's very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arneman Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Why would anyone agree to do such an act of vandalism :s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted January 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 money goes a long way as incentive. Seems several people refused until he found one who was willing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Note that the Romans had no qualms about using money for art. Below is a ring, sold by FORVM, that has a portrait of Augustus cut from a denarius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted January 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 IMO, what the romans might have done with a denarius has no bearing on what was done to these coins more than a thousand years later or makes it any less a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I am playing devil's advocate. The Romans had no qualms about destroying their coins. Romans melted coins down to make jewelry, also. So why is it a "shame", or an "act of vandalism", or a "disregard for history and cultures"? I do not approve of this myself, but to everyone his own. I am curious about the responses. When does something become sacred? How old does it have to be before it is inviolate? 1500 years in the future, will people get upset if someone cuts up some U.S. state quarters...and/or should they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arneman Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I am playing devil's advocate. The Romans had no qualms about destroying their coins. Romans melted coins down to make jewelry, also. So why is it a "shame", or an "act of vandalism", or a "disregard for history and cultures"? I do not approve of this myself, but to everyone his own. I am curious about the responses. When does something become sacred? How old does it have to be before it is inviolate? 1500 years in the future, will people get upset if someone cuts up some U.S. state quarters...and/or should they? I can understand where you are going with this. If I would do something to let's say a coin from 2008, millions of it were minted. Who would care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristofer Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 I am playing devil's advocate. The Romans had no qualms about destroying their coins. Romans melted coins down to make jewelry, also. So why is it a "shame", or an "act of vandalism", or a "disregard for history and cultures"? I do not approve of this myself, but to everyone his own. I am curious about the responses. When does something become sacred? How old does it have to be before it is inviolate? 1500 years in the future, will people get upset if someone cuts up some U.S. state quarters...and/or should they? To ask this question is the same as asking why it's important to protect endangered animals, I'll further elaborate. I wouldn't use the word sacred, but it's all based on scarcity(and historical value), the same reason why if I throw a piece of pizza in the garbage most people won't care, but if I throw the hope diamond away people would 1.) jump into the garbage to get it. and 2.) think I'm a complete nut. I don't think age matters so much, it's really scarcity, it just happens to be that with time comes scarcity. That's why, as in a post I read earlier, there are ionian coins that can still be gotten on e--y for as little as $20.00. People most likely wouldn't be so upset if one of these coins were destroyed as apposed to the Hope Diamond. 1.) There's only one Hope Diamond 2.) there are large amounts of the coin available. This is neglecting their differing perceived dollar values (which are also based on scarcity might I add). Each time something is destroyed, it gets us one step closer to losing that piece of history forever. and eventually it will be forgotten. To answer your quarters question, I believe people would if our country had fallen and few were in existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted January 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Its just a matter of common sense...these are historical artifacts someone destroyed to make false teeth, every archeologists worst nightmare come true and enough to confirm their opinions that the public cannot be trusted with historical artifacts. I agree that 'to each his own'...he bought them, they are his to destroy...nothing he did was against the law I assume...its just a shame he did it...and no...mutilating a quarter isnt the same for very obvious reasons...even the fact that dentists would turn down good money to do this for him shows how such a thing went against their sensibilities. One can look at a mutilated piece of history and art and say 'its a shame' or 'how awful' and the reasons they feel this way are so apparent they need not explanation. Thats just a common response to stupidity. I understand what you were doing but it just doesnt have any bearing on the situation. What a Roman did with money has no bearing as to how much of a shame it is that this man destroyed historical artifacts....there is no need to try and set some objective benchmark as to what, why, or when something becomes 'a shame' when it is destroyed...it is subjective of course...but there is no need to debate why people would find it objectionable...or try to pin point the time and place where it becomes okay...the more you care about preserving such things, the more of a shame it is... To me it is like chopping up old important works of art to sew together to make a dress made of bits of paintings from the great masters......its just sad and a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 So at what level of age and rarity is it OK to destroy a piece of art? A quarter that is one in a billion can be mutilated? A unique statue in Afghanistan should not be shelled. The extremes are easy, but where do you draw the line? What is lost when an old coin like this is destroyed? How many would have actually seen it and created a positive experience due to the interaction that is now lost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristofer Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 So at what level of age and rarity is it OK to destroy a piece of art? A quarter that is one in a billion can be mutilated? A unique statue in Afghanistan should not be shelled. The extremes are easy, but where do you draw the line? What is lost when an old coin like this is destroyed? How many would have actually seen it and created a positive experience due to the interaction that is now lost? I understand the philosophical point that is trying to be made, but when it's extreme like this it's easy to decide that it would've been better served in the public domain where people could appreciate it. Such as myself, I would've gotten great joy from seeing those in person because you can be awestruck at the fact that even 1500 years ago they were able to create coins with great artistry. At the very least they are survived hopefully by others, and these pictures. But like all things in life, rarely can a "line" be drawn for anything. It's just best left up to judgment, and due to the fact that most reactions were "That's not good" one can assume, because "the greatest good for the greatest number" being the primary (with politics aside) system, that this act was not good. I'll further elaborate. So, the only way to kind of "know" is by what the majority decides. The sample, however, in order to truly determine an items importance must be decided by the sect of people who would truly care, and understand its importance (in our case numismatists). So we're now left with a question. Is such and such coin important? Ask a group of numismatists, would you be truly upset if such and such coin were destroyed to make false teeth? If the concensus is "Yes, this would be awful." then there is your line. I know that philosophy dictates that this method could be considered severely incorrect because "what if the guy needed the teeth so badly and that's all he had?" Which I would doubt, but what if? Since the beginning of philosophy, philosophers have been running in circles arguing whether or not the greatest good for the greatest number is in fact good, no one will ever know. What came first, the chicken or the egg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 So at what level of age and rarity is it OK to destroy a piece of art? A quarter that is one in a billion can be mutilated? A unique statue in Afghanistan should not be shelled. The extremes are easy, but where do you draw the line? What is lost when an old coin like this is destroyed? How many would have actually seen it and created a positive experience due to the interaction that is now lost? again, its not a discussion that I feel needs to be had, I dont think that a line needs to be drawn for those who look to destroy such things...IMO of course. I would think the destruction of money...ESPECIALLY more rare historical artifacts from a long gone civilization, should not be helped along by drawing a line and saying THESE coins you can mindlessly destroy...these try not to destroy...howz about dont destroy any coins if it can be helped. No work of art should be destroyed, no historical artifacts should be destroyed, thus why even discuss where the cut off date is for the destruction of it. Now coins arent quite the same as some one of a kind work of art from a master, but all the same...as a person who see's these things as important historical documents of the time period...and to make dental work out of ancient artifacts is simply a terrible thing...the fact that this man was turned down multiple times shows that even then the sensibilities of the dentists told them it was simply wrong to do, they refused perfectly good money and passed on the job. These are ancient gold coins... It doesnt matter how many people would have seen the coins or how many would have had a positive experience from it...for one...I, and many many others, would have been happy to give those coins a home and a place to be viewed by those who would find them interesting. I would have given them an honored place in my collection and a historical background for those to use them as a tool for learning. Even if they were shuffled away into the bowels of a museum, that is a much better fate for them than being mutilated. I would have thought anyone who collects and admires the value of historical artifacts would cringe when reading this, and yes...maybe it takes time....maybe in a thousand years people will cringe just as much as I do when I read this when such a thing is done to a quarter which we consider to be rather common today. I also dont destroy quarters. Its not just that they are works of ancient art but they are also historical artifacts...this man might as well have taken a hammer to Trajans amphitheater, broken off a chunk of it and hammered it into bits...enough people who do this and there is no more coliseum...each bit is gone forever. I would think any collector of antiquities and old coins can simply think of what they consider valuable art, coins, or medals...whatever... Artifacts you consider as rare and important works. and think of someone just destroying them on a whim....As a collector, arent there coins that you can think of that you would consider to be a real shame or would be a real loss if they were destroyed in such a way? To appreciate how bad this is, one must appreciate history and what the coins represented and why they are so valuable....and many may not. And again...for those who DO see this as a destruction of important historical artifacts....it re-enforces to them WHY the common man shouldn't be trusted to own these artifacts, it justifies the elitist attitude that most people are just apes, no better than children who cant be trusted with nice things....its paramount to going to a archeological site and deliberately destroying artifacts there. Only because historians and archeologists have NOT completely gotten their way (and they do try)...some artifacts are still open to be bought and sold and this story would be the sum of all fears for them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeOldeCollector Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 I don't know anything about the coins mentioned above and so, sorry to say, am not too worried. If it was anything seriously important then there would be an uproar on this forum. But I agree with Drusus, coins like that should be in the hands of a collector! An example is a coin I have, it is a unique English hammered coin and it was found in a rubbish dump outside of London. My first thought was, what was a guy doing in a rubbish pile anyway? But I wasn't fussed, so most likely this coin had been excavated on a building site and put in a skip and dumped outside of London. So this unique coin that's over 1000 years old was found somewhere in London and just dumped until some person found it and now I have it. So just goes to show that someone else's rubbish is someone else's treasure! Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 An example is a coin I have, it is a unique English hammered coin and it was found in a rubbish dump outside of London. My first thought was, what was a guy doing in a rubbish pile anyway? But I wasn't fussed, so most likely this coin had been excavated on a building site and put in a skip and dumped outside of London. So this unique coin that's over 1000 years old was found somewhere in London and just dumped until some person found it and now I have it. So just goes to show that someone else's rubbish is someone else's treasure! The idea of throwing away such a unique coin is about paramount to this case, worse because at least there are other surviving examples of the coins he destroyed. This person destroyed what is considered some of the more fine and valuable examples of ancient gold coinage from Trajan, Tiberius, Justinian and others...at the time they were worth 30,000...today they would be worth much more....to someone like me they would be priceless. It IS his right to do what he did...life goes on...just cant help but feel it was a damn shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Only because historians and archeologists have NOT completely gotten their way (and they do try) You should not lump all historians and archaeologists together in such a broad statement, because most do not care whether people collect coins or not. It is only a very vocal minority that is opposed to private collections. I can't think of even one instance when this was an issue for the American Historical Association. I for one did my master's work in history and one of my undergrad minors was archaeology, and I sure do not have a problem with people collecting coins. In fact, out of the many dozens of historians and archaeologists I have met and worked with, none seemed to care if people collected coins. One of my state archaeologists even attended the same coin meetings as me, and he also collected ancients! My original question was actually rhetorical, but the responses have been great, of course what other type of responses could one expect from a coin forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristofer Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 You should not lump all historians and archaeologists together in such a broad statement, because most do not care whether people collect coins or not. It is only a very vocal minority that is opposed to private collections. I can't think of even one instance when this was an issue for the American Historical Association. I for one did my master's work in history and one of my undergrad minors was archaeology, and I sure do not have a problem with people collecting coins. In fact, out of the many dozens of historians and archaeologists I have met and worked with, none seemed to care if people collected coins. One of my state archaeologists even attended the same coin meetings as me, and he also collected ancients!My original question was actually rhetorical, but the responses have been great, of course what other type of responses could one expect from a coin forum! Yeah, you were bound to receive a skewed sample It's like asking kids if they like candy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted January 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 You should not lump all historians and archaeologists together in such a broad statement, because most do not care whether people collect coins or not. It is only a very vocal minority that is opposed to private collections. I can't think of even one instance when this was an issue for the American Historical Association. I for one did my master's work in history and one of my undergrad minors was archaeology, and I sure do not have a problem with people collecting coins. In fact, out of the many dozens of historians and archaeologists I have met and worked with, none seemed to care if people collected coins. One of my state archaeologists even attended the same coin meetings as me, and he also collected ancients!My original question was actually rhetorical, but the responses have been great, of course what other type of responses could one expect from a coin forum! interesting how experiences can differ so much. I also have had ample interaction with historians and have had my share of debates regarding this subject. More often than not I have found that the private collecting of antiquities to be frowned upon in general. Its not so much that they frown upon the practice of collecting as much as the common way these coins are found, taken, and sold. They seem most disturbed about the huge amount of coins taken from sites where they are found without any chance to study them as they were found. As a person in the know, you know how important coins can be to a site dig. As a collector you may also know how human nature works and how a site can be stripped of all its antiquities to be sold abroad with no concern for keeping the integrity of the site for study. In fact I would say the overwhelming majority of those I have interacted with have much more of an elitist exclusionary attitude towards the subject and seem to think that such things should be left entirely to academia and those best suited to the task...in other words...themselves. As a collector I also know how many coins I own that were probably taken from sites without anyone having a chance to study them. I certainly cannot place most of my ancient coins to a legal source. I know for sure that many of my coins were probably taken with no care for study and shipped from a nation who has laws against such things. In essence, I am positive that many if not all of my coins are probably the product of the pillage of an historical site and smuggling. I tend to think this is the case with all ancient coin collections. I tend to agree with them that this is in fact most likely the way the majority of ancient coins come to market...I have made peace with that as a collector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 As a collector I also know how many coins I own that were probably taken from sites without anyone having a chance to study them. You know?!? I certainly cannot place most of my ancient coins to a legal source. Can you place them to an illegal source? I know for sure that many of my coins were probably taken with no care for study and shipped from a nation who has laws against such things. In essence, I am positive that many if not all of my coins are probably the product of the pillage of an historical site and smuggling. I tend to think this is the case with all ancient coin collections. I'm sure this happens a lot now in the Balkans and Turkey in particular. Since those countries forbid export at present there must be a good bit of smuggling. I'm less confident about historical sites being raided, coins are often found alone as well. Though certainly the find spot is lost when the coins are not cataloged. I also don't have good feel on how many coins came to market before 1970 versus after, since the process of exporting coins was not deemed "wrong" by academia until that cut-off date. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted January 15, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 You know?!? Can you place them to an illegal source? I'm sure this happens a lot now in the Balkans and Turkey in particular. Since those countries forbid export at present there must be a good bit of smuggling. I'm less confident about historical sites being raided, coins are often found alone as well. Though certainly the find spot is lost when the coins are not cataloged. I also don't have good feel on how many coins came to market before 1970 versus after, since the process of exporting coins was not deemed "wrong" by academia until that cut-off date. Once upon a time a collector got sick and tired of spending money on pathetic 'premium uncleaned' With 9 slugs out of 10 being average, sure premium is 5 coins heavilyy scarred and barely identifiable, and some slugs . He sought REAL premium uncleaned. That collector found REAL premium uncleaned in the Balkans. But alas, to export large hordes like these to other nations is illegal. Others buy hordes in this same way...they end up selling them to others coin by coin or in smaller lots and these coins end up in our collections...IF a coin comes from certain areas of the world where these coins are prone to be found. They are illegal. The laws are there more because at one point the free for all looting, export, and sale of these things got bad enough for them to feel the need to try and stop it. What else was found with these hordes of coins, where did they go, the same path no doubt. Now certainly most of the coins I come across wont be on display in a museum...they would simply be tagged and put away by a museum as many are just your common constantine and family. valentinian, valens, etc...and like you say, who knows now WHERE they came from or when they got here. I heard an Italian man lamenting once that all the Homer Simpsons are buying up their history because they dont have one...this was the only explanation this guy could come up with as to why Americans would want ancient coins... Well without laws like these...all the Homer Simpsons would be buying up all your history All kidding aside. I cannot attribute most of my coins to a spot in the world where they were found (one can speculate), I have no idea who brought them to market, how they were found, etc...I dont think a lot of people could answer these questions about a lot of the coins they own unless they were the ones who brought them to market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristofer Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 I heard an Italian man lamenting once that all the Homer Simpsons are buying up their history because they dont have one...this was the only explanation this guy could come up with as to why Americans would want ancient coins... I have huge respect for Italy; it's a cultural epicenter. I understand how the man could feel as he did, but ultimately you can only look at the people surrounding you. If there were a demand in his country for his countries history, then the coins wouldn't be getting exported at such a high volume. I would call the people in Italy the Homer Simpsons before I called the people who were purchasing the coins that. Not to say there aren't people who buy because they want to say, look look I got it! But for people like me, I love the history of Rome and wouldn't mind having some coins so that I can see what was used for commerce so long ago. It's so hard to imagine that something I can be holding in my hand had lived through countless generations. I believe it is the responsibility of the local people to maintain the demand for their history. If they don't want it, then someone else will provide another home. God willing that it be a good home. I completely agree with the gentleman however on one point. America doesn't have a history. We are too young and our culture is just a hodge podge of everyone else's. What else can you expect from a country that is 232 years old? Our sole existence the first hundred was to get people to immigrate here. So yes, we don't really have a culture. And unfortunately, as we rot away in front of televisions and computer screens, we aren't developing one, or at least a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YeOldeCollector Posted January 15, 2008 Report Share Posted January 15, 2008 All kidding aside. I cannot attribute most of my coins to a spot in the world where they were found (one can speculate), I have no idea who brought them to market, how they were found, etc...I dont think a lot of people could answer these questions about a lot of the coins they own unless they were the ones who brought them to market. I can attribute most of my coins to a town or county and some to an exact road and grid reference but the average age of my coins is about 1250 so not as old, all coins pre-1200 or very rare ones I try my best to get find-spots and have been known to track people down in the phonebook and ring them! But provenance like this reassures me as to its origin and intent for being put on the market in the first place. But being in America and the coins coming from the Balkans must make it much harder to get exact find-spots whereas most of my purchased coins were found within a 150 mile radius which makes it easier. Clive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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