Ancient Dental Work (not for the faint of heart)

[jlueke]

I heard an Italian man lamenting once that all the Homer Simpsons are buying up their history because they dont have one...this was the only explanation this guy could come up with as to why Americans would want ancient coins...

 

This one crux of the whole hullaballo out there now about ancient coins and artifacts. Whose history is it? An Italian descended from Frankish invaders claims a right above an American descended from old Roman stock. It gets silly quick. We are all humans, the past doesn't really exist except through our connection with it now.

 

The looting and smuggling can be dealt with fairly easily and reasonably. But only when collectors, dealers, museums, and archeologists work together. As long as the groups fight and try to prove that each is right and the other wrong the damage, such as it is, will continue.

[Drusus]

The looting and smuggling can be dealt with fairly easily and reasonably. But only when collectors, dealers, museums, and archeologists work together. As long as the groups fight and try to prove that each is right and the other wrong the damage, such as it is, will continue.

 

I tend to agree completely...as for that Italian man, I just think he was mad because an American outbid him or something, pompous, who knows...he was just being a jerk. insulting. With me its just a love of history in general regardless of where it is...I dont read about Idi Amin because I wish I could live under a brutal regime in Africa. Nor do I read Roman History because I am lamenting that I have no culture. I will just as quickly read American history as any other...people glom on to history that is interesting to them regarless of where they live...Roman history is interesting. I met a brit who LOVED asian culture...one cannot say this brit did not have a long storied history in his own country...he just loved asian history, customs, and culture. Go figure.

 

Also...to the comment that America has no culture...this is wrong in my opinion...we are all from somewhere...we not only have our own short (but in my opinion fascinating) history but we also share in the culture of where we come from be it Britain, Europe, Africa, Asia. European history is just as much mine as a person living there today...For a myriad of reasons, my ancestors left Europe a few generations ago...

[Victor]

A small historical point about Americans and culture-- many Americans (North and South) have rich cultures that stretch back thousands of years. I, like many others, have a mixed ancestry which is part Native American-- Cherokee in my case.

[Kristofer]

A small historical point about Americans and culture-- many Americans (North and South) have rich cultures that stretch back thousands of years. I, like many others, have a mixed ancestry which is part Native American-- Cherokee in my case.

 

I actually wasn't referencing Native Americans because I'm most certain the italian gentleman wouldn't have been calling them homer simpsons. There is not doubt that Native Americans have a lush social, and spiritual culture that far exceeds current American culture. My point was, our culture as whole, is mainly everyone else's cultures mixed. This is a biproduct of the way our country became as heavily inhabited as it is. So I will agree, Native Americans have a great culture, just as any European, Asian, or Middle Easterner has. But America, the country, as a whole doesn't have its own culture, but a bunch of cultures put together. Some might argue this to be a culture, some might not. I just wanted to clarify on my meaning.

[Victor]

I would think the destruction of money... should not be helped...howz about dont destroy any coins if it can be helped.

 

No work of art should be destroyed

 

maybe in a thousand years people will cringe just as much as I do when I read this when such a thing is done to a quarter which we consider to be rather common today. I also dont destroy quarters.

 

As a collector, arent there coins that you can think of that you would consider to be a real shame or would be a real loss if they were destroyed in such a way?

 

To appreciate how bad this is, one must appreciate history and what the coins represented and why they are so valuable....and many may not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, is it okay to carve buffalo nickels up?

 

 

http://www.cachecoins.org/hobo02.htm

[roaddevil]

well my point of view is that anything near scarce and above a certain amount of years (such as 2000 years for example..not 200 or whatever) with great historic and cultural value should not be sold to random people. everyone should be allowed the amusement of viewing them ...thats why we have museums.

 

to be honest one of the main goals i have in coin collecting is not just to have fun viewing the coins but also to store them because of their historic value...if it wasnt for collectors like us many valuable things we now have in museums wont be there. example art collectors, instrument collectors, ranging to wierd stuff like glass/bottle collectors, etc.

a coin only 50 years old today will be 100 years old after another 50 years...doesnt matter as long as it represents a part of the history of the country that used it.

 

anyway im just rambling on and on dont mind me

[corkykile]

I have been reading these posts over and over again, about the guy with the expensive dental work and realized that no one has yet pointed out the obvious.

 

Apparently he did not care what anyone would think about what he did.

He was wealthy enough to own the coins. That was probably all the coins were to him, something he could do anything with he wanted to.

 

Check out the wealthy these days... don't they just do some of the craziest things? They spend millions of dollars on artwork that in my mind seems

ridiculous. They spend the equivalent of a full years wages of most working class citizens on a night or two at a resort.

 

Looking back and seeing what the guy did with the ancient coins is rather like closing the barn door after the stock has disappeared into the night.

All we can do is discuss what he should have done.

 

Believe it or not, about the same time period, mummies from Egypt and other eastern nations were being sold on the open market, and I understand, in some cases used as firewood.

 

Yes, if I had been alive then I would not have known about what he did in time enough to have stopped him. The communications were so slow that we would have not known for days or weeks after the event. The only way to change history is to be there while it is being made, and hope you are wise and brave enough to at least try to do something to change a course of events that we now know will be so totally disastrous.

 

Thank you for all the wonderful people now that collect and preserve our history. Thank you to all those so well educated persons who delve into the past and preserve whatever they can so that we might know what the world was like even a couple generations ago.

 

In my humble opinions...

 

corkykile

[Drusus]

So, is it okay to carve buffalo nickels up?

http://www.cachecoins.org/hobo02.htm

 

I am going to assume from the posts I have read from you that you are bright enough to see the difference between the mindless destruction of ancient gold coins to make dentures and the rare practice of carving a unique work of art on a common worn 5 cent piece and the American history this practice represents. But no, I have never destroyed a coin be it an American 5 cent piece or Roman gold coin...I do have enough common sense to see the not so subtle difference between the two. I assume you understand the differences as well. If not, I could explain, but if you truly dont see the difference, or understand why it is such a terrible thing to destroy ancient roman coins to cap some idiot teeth who has more money than sense...then I doubt anything I say would make a difference. In the end, the destruction of ancient gold coins to make dentures is a crying shame while a wonderfully carved Hobo Nickel is a delightful work of art...it would be a crying shame to destroy that hobo nickel to make dentures.

[Victor]

I am going to assume from the posts I have read from you that you are bright enough to see the difference between the mindless destruction of ancient gold coins to make dentures and the rare practice of carving a unique work of art on a common worn 5 cent piece and the American history this practice represents. But no, I have never destroyed a coin be it an American 5 cent piece or Roman gold coin...I do have enough common sense to see the not so subtle difference between the two. I assume you understand the differences as well. If not, I could explain, but if you truly dont see the difference, or understand why it is such a terrible thing to destroy ancient roman coins to cap some idiot teeth who has more money than sense...then I doubt anything I say would make a difference. In the end, the destruction of ancient gold coins to make dentures is a crying shame while a wonderfully carved Hobo Nickel is a delightful work of art...it would be a crying shame to destroy that hobo nickel to make dentures.

 

 

Sure, explain to everyone the rules, since it does not seem clear, or seems somewhat arbitrary...or do you make them up as you go, to suit yourself? For example, you mentioned that carving a common, worn nickel is okay, so is it okay to carve common, worn ancient coins? Or maybe I am not as bright as you would like to assume. Or maybe you do not understand the concept of theoretical questions that might not have easy answers, or any answer at all! If you do not understand the concept of theoretical questions that are meant to work the brain more than elicit knee-jerk responses, then this is indeed pointless...which seems to be, since you keep answering authoritatively like you have the facts, when you are actually talking about opinions. And I said "I do not approve of this myself" (concerning mutilation of coins) but that sure doesn't mean I would try to shut down conversation about it!

 

You have called yourself a historian before, even though you carry on like an antiquarian, as you seem to lack a concept of multiple perspectives...there is no big Truth with a capital T, only little truths, and "What might be right for you, may not be right for some." -- words of wisdom from the sitcom "Diff'rent Strokes"

 

 

 

If you must continue, please try to avoid the ad hominen attacks. These are personal attacks and the phrase translates as "against the man." An ad hominen argument is a logical fallacy that people employ to distract from the issue, or avoid a real answer. An example of an ad hominen attack is "I am going to assume from the posts I have read from you that you are bright enough to see the difference," or “if you truly dont see the difference, or understand.” You have tried to cast doubt on my reasoning by insinuating that I might not be intelligent enough to understand what you are talking about. In response, I did it to a lesser degree when I questioned whether you understood certain concepts. This is shabby and somewhat sophomoric, But if it is all one has…

 

 

To try to get back on point, I originally asked "When does something become sacred? How old does it have to be before it is inviolate?" This does not have a real answer, but is meant to make one think about issues, it is however, a question of real historical import.

[Drusus]

I did not mean to attack you, bright was not the best wording. I merely assumed you DID know why someone would think it is wrong to destroy historical artifacts. I thought you were just making an argument for arguments sake, willfully ignorant to spark debate. I did not start the thread to debate whether it was wrong or right to destroy ancient artifacts as it is clear that I believe it is wrong. There are obviously no hard and fast rules. There is no line one can conclusively draw that will universally be accepted as 'truth'. Nor was I saying that I was the arbiter of where this line must be drawn as I am clearly just one person with an opinion.

 

Do I make it up as I go along? Sure... it is not an exact science by any means and if you are looking for me to point to a line that is the objective cutoff point where it becomes okay to destroy something, I cant. As I have said, it is something similar to common sense. One simply should not destroy ancient artifacts, in this case ancient gold coins. I imagine the reasons would be the same one would give for not spray painting the walls of the lascaux caves with graffiti or for not taking a sledgehammer to the Temple of Dendera.

 

This admittedly is not a science and there are no absolutes as there will always be people who do not see the need to preserve what others see as important historical artifacts. What one (or many) finds precious, another will have no problems destroying. Where does one draw the line? I don't honestly know and believe it is a case by case basis that becomes more inherently obvious to most the farther back you go. the more rare it is, or the more interesting or beautiful it is. My art history professor cried when she read about bombs destroying an ancient ziggurat in Iraq. My mother is involved in restoring and preserving old historical buildings. In England there are archeologist studying the trash of Roman Imperial soldiers which includes letters from home and paper work. If you were to destroy this trash they are studying, many people would be outraged. If you destroy a common modern penny that is still being produced in the millions, most people won't get upset. If you destroy an Edward the confessor penny, people would care. In time, many common things become treasure because of the historical value.

 

Also, since I am setting the rules I would say even an ancient late Roman copper has historical value and should not be destroyed. There will come a day when even a poor example we now consider common will be a rare glimpse into ancient life...as it is they have great value as affordable antiquities for the masses. In a few thousand years a Lincoln penny minted in the last few years will have historic value I am sure a Hobo nickel will be a rare example of an ancient art form.

 

again, my apologies if I came off as insulting. It was not my intention to debate the issue or to defend why I feel the act of making dentures from ancient coins is wrong. I honestly believed the reasons to be apparent to anyone.

[jlueke]

Uh oh, no more coin batteries made out of junk 4th century Romans