squirrel Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 I picked this up based on a low res photo.... Im pretty sure its no good, seeing it in hand. It just doesnt seem right. the weight is correct, but i havent seen enough of these in person to judge for sure. The dealer has agreed to take it back, if i so choose.. any opinions? are there known fakes of this coin? thanks.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Yes, a lot of them are coming from the Baltic states. Try to see if it is not a cast - easy enough to verify.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 It looks Baltic to me, it should have a different sound when you tap it. More of a dull thud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 It may be good too, just corroded and messed with. Most fakes of this kind I saw were dated 1806, but some other dates exist as fakes. Look up the edge. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted June 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 thanks guys. it does seem to ring different then the others. Heres a blowup..... seems to be missing some detail? at best, it was cleaned and retoned, no patina at all. i think it goes back to germany..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted June 3, 2007 Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 ... i think it goes back to germany..... No doubt about that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Hi Squirrel, sorry for being late, my computer was sick. Abt 1-2 years ago I saw 4 copper coins eBayed from Estonia. Being all common coins, they all looked normal at first glance. Weight was in the normal range. But they all showed the same off color shade. And all had a ridge on the edge more or less distinct, impossible to have been caused by the edging technique of the time. The ridge could only be explained by the assemblance of the two halves of a mold, one for each side of the coin to be cast in that mold. At places that ridge had been limed away, at others not. Also, ringing those fakes sounded quite different from genuine piataks. If you still have the item, check the rim, if possible please edit picture, thank you. See one of the fake coins (I only have the pictures left). Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 (I only have the pictures left). Sigi Hi Sigi, What did you do with the coins? I have the same 10 kopek from Siberia, the guy from Austria, Mr. Horninger, did not want to take his junk back As to the coin of Josh - it could be genuine but corroded. Everything you can say by looking on the edge and looking on the details with x20 magnification, to exclude casting. Also ring it. If the analysis of all 3 features reveals positive results, the coin is most probably ok. Alexey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted June 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Thanks for the input, guys. 1. To me, the coin doesnt pass the detail test. (see the above high res crop..) I bought it because it seemed to be better grade for less $$ than some others i had seen.. Also, the obverse border seems funny (the ring of dentils between the outer concentric ring and the edge) the dentils all have a hollow to them, and i have not seen this in a photo of a genuine coin (see thread "coin has whiskers 1802 5 kopeck") 2, The edge has no signs of a seam. it appears as the correct edge for the type, with a few flat spots. not too tough to machine that type edge... 3. Ive tried ringing it various ways, and it sounds different than my 1804 5k, or other pyataks.. im not sure of the best technique for ringing... how do you guys do it? 4. Just doesnt have the right feel. No patina whatsover. just fake toning. dont like that, even if coin is genuine.. I post in part because the seller will no double put this right back up on ebay, once it goes back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Hi Sigi, What did you do with the coins? Alexey, I had not bought the coins, but I had them only for examination. Finding that they were definitely fakes, I took pictures and sent the items back to the purchaser. As far as I know they were returned to Estonia. About 5-6 years ago I bought a 10kop1774KM with similar features, it had been offered at eBay as "copy". I later sold it to Tom Bakken as a fake (he also collects fakes). Of that one I have no pictures left. Can you show your suspicious Siberia 10kop? Thank you, Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 3. Ive tried ringing it various ways, and it sounds different than my 1804 5k, or other pyataks.. im not sure of the best technique for ringing... how do you guys do it? I'd put the questionable coin on the tip of my forefinger and hit it slightly with another 5kop. Then I'd repeat the test with similar but genuine coins. A cast fake sounds very different. Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted June 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 I'd put the questionable coin on the tip of my forefinger and hit it slightly with another 5kop. <br>Then I'd repeat the test with similar but genuine coins.<br> A cast fake sounds very different. Sigi thanks Sigi.. i will try it that way tonight... i was holding by the edge, at 180 degrees , and tapping the middle. If you are in touch with Mr. Bakken, perhaps he is familiar with this fake? Its not listed in his last Brekke supplement. Im sure theres enough new fakes by now for another supplement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted June 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 ok, update... i rang the coin using Sigi's method..... very different! the real coins have a long, high pitched tone that slowly fades... this coin goes "clink" and thats it. Im going to the post office! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 Squirrel, the result of your ring test reveals the coin to be cast. But if the edge is OK, where are the seams of the 2 halves of the mold? Can you detect anything at the rim? Thanks, Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted June 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 There is no detectable seam on the edge. i suspect the casting was flattened out with a grinding wheel etc. and the edge then machined. The serrations of the edge are shallow and thin, compared to the genuine 1804 i have. I will photograph tonight (im back at work now... went home for lunch to try the ring..) by the way, (and off topic) there was a certain 1765 cpm you were looking at. i saw it too. wondering why it went so high. more craziness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted June 4, 2007 Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 there was a certain 1765 cpm you were looking at. i saw it too. wondering why it went so high. more craziness?Squirrel, I think we will have to live with the terrible prices or start collecting something else. Sad thing. Yes, I was after that coin but did not want to spend more than EURO 100 (i.e. $130) because I have it already (monogram side slightly inferior, eagle side slightly superior). Bought at some $50 2-3 years ago. Those were the times..... Thank you for the pics to come, Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted June 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2007 ok, heres the edge. the clunker is in the middle. top and bottom coins are both 1804 EM 5 Kopecks. my opinion now is the casting seam was ground down, and hidden with a machined edge. lots of flat spots UNDER the edge grooves. The authentic coins have flat spots, but usually ON the grooves, smashing them flat. im off to do the other kind of clinking now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted June 5, 2007 Report Share Posted June 5, 2007 Thank you, Squirrel! On the picture the clunker's edge looks perfectly normal. No trace of the seam of two mold halves. I would have trusted this edge on an eBay picture. Now I know better. Thank you again for this. Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted June 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Ive had some fun ringing coins. Does the test apply to the Siberia 10k as well? I have one that didnt ring, but im 99.9% sure its genuine. It went thud, but theres a lot of copper there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 squirrel, I believe the copper composition of the Siberian copper is pretty different from the ones used in other mints so it would sound slightly different although I am not too sure what it is supposed to sound like as I have no Siberian coins other than a counterfeit Speaking of which, I believe this is a cast thanks this discussion Surface looks lacquered which is wierd and the pitting has zero traces of verdigris which is quite suspective. And lastly the edging just looks like a darn cast Will post higher resolution pics later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kisenish Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Speaking of which, I believe this is a cast thanks this discussion Why??? I'm pretty sure this is a good coin unless the edge has a ridge from two halves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted June 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 GX, that 1788 MM looks like a an overstruck twice coin should, to me. I once recieved a 1766 MM 2 Kopeck, that had been polished and polyurethaned... (again, dont trust photos..!) I soaked it in methyl chloride paint stripper, (the nasty stuff, because the "green" stuff didnt touch it). I gave it a light artificial toning (these never look that good), and stuck it in my junk box. It was a well worn almost smooth coin, so i didnt really mind "fixing" it. The paint stripper doesnt react with the copper, so its ok to use, but any patina under the varnish will be removed, so you end up with a pink coin. I dont think the siberia copper is the culprit... There is some silver in there, and silver rings longer than copper, im noticing. the 5 Kop and 2 Kop Siberias ring just like the others. Im theorizing the mass of the 10K may be incompatible with resonating. Also, the effects of the striking pressure and temp, which change the molecular structure of the metal to enable ringing resonance, might not go deep into the coin due to its thickness and mass. I have noticed the thinner coins ring better than the thicker one of the same diameter. Has anyone tried to ring a Sestroretsk ruble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rittenhouse Posted June 8, 2007 Report Share Posted June 8, 2007 Thank you, Squirrel! On the picture the clunker's edge looks perfectly normal. No trace of the seam of two mold halves.<br> I would have trusted this edge on an eBay picture. Now I know better. Thank you again for this. Sigi The issue with squirrel's piece & sigi's discussion brings up an important point: DO NOT trust that a coin is not a cast fake simply because you can't see a seam. The dummies leave the seam on, smarter counterfeiters will cast the pice slightly large and then machine it off and then hide it with applied edge reeding. Be careful guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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