DAJ Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1 Item number: 170052683323 Speaking of Borodino, i would like input on this coin, my favorite. What do you think of the condition, the potential grade, authenticity. Something that could be slabbed by NGC? It looks good to me. Thoughts? And what about the price? Thanks much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 The prices have risen dramatic for the Borodin ruble. Two years ago, or almost three years ago, I bought mine for a pitiful 70USD if I am not mistaken, and I should send it authentification. (Mine might be a super high quality counterfeit afterall ) I don't see it is a counterfeit unless it's another super high quality counterfeit which is difficult to tell from images. Perhaps 2grand is the realistic price for that coin but there is always going to be a buyer for such strong grade coin. There is not much wear but there are some marks on the background, which might lower the grade - I am guessing it would be MS60ish, but I can't quite tell if there is much wear to the hair of Alexander I. If you are going to bid on this coin, I wish you luck. It is an amazing coin. Have you managed to look out for other examples of Alexander I portrait coins, DAJ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1 Item number: 170052683323 Speaking of Borodino, i would like input on this coin, my favorite. What do you think of the condition, the potential grade, authenticity. Something that could be slabbed by NGC? It looks good to me. Thoughts? And what about the price? Thanks much. I would stay away from this one. My opinion, it is a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 I would stay away from this one. My opinion, it is a fake. Finally! I started to think that no one would say this! BKB, what in particular you did not like about this coin? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyal Citizen Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Finally! I started to think that no one would say this! BKB, what in particular you did not like about this coin? WCO Guys! Do you ever like any coin ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Guys!Do you ever like any coin ??? Sure we do! (the genuine ones, that is. ) Now I, too, would like to know why this coin might be fake...I don't collect Russian commemorative coins (yet)...whatever the reason, I assume it isn't very obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Sure we do! (the genuine ones, that is. )Now I, too, would like to know why this coin might be fake...I don't collect Russian commemorative coins (yet)...whatever the reason, I assume it isn't very obvious. Some time ago I had a chance to compare a number of these coins against 2 original ones. The original coins came from the same die. I am not sure whether there were different dies, but it is not reflected in any literature. The coins that I compared to original coins were identical, same color, ideal quality. There was also a "grandfather" story. There was one major difference that I found. I would rather not discuss it in the open, because I do not want a wrong person to see it. I have been using it for 8 years and do not want the fakers to fix those dies. Anyone who is interested: my email is kirilsky@hotmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted November 22, 2006 Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Some time ago I had a chance to compare a number of these coins against 2 original ones. The original coins came from the same die. I am not sure whether there were different dies, but it is not reflected in any literature. The coins that I compared to original coins were identical, same color, ideal quality. There was also a "grandfather" story. There was one major difference that I found. I would rather not discuss it in the open, because I do not want a wrong person to see it. I have been using it for 8 years and do not want the fakers to fix those dies. Anyone who is interested: my email is kirilsky@hotmail.com When you compared the dies of original coins - did you notice the difference in length of rays above the portrait? Short\long rays - are normal variation difference for 1 1\2, but the rouble coins have the same feature though less distinctive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted November 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2006 Some time ago I had a chance to compare a number of these coins against 2 original ones. The original coins came from the same die. I am not sure whether there were different dies, but it is not reflected in any literature. The coins that I compared to original coins were identical, same color, ideal quality. There was also a "grandfather" story. There was one major difference that I found. I would rather not discuss it in the open, because I do not want a wrong person to see it. I have been using it for 8 years and do not want the fakers to fix those dies. Anyone who is interested: my email is kirilsky@hotmail.com i am wondering about the strike, but there looks to be a little patina. from my experience, the odds are so great of there being fakes. it is incredible. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Some time ago I had a chance to compare a number of these coins against 2 original ones. The original coins came from the same die. I am not sure whether there were different dies, but it is not reflected in any literature. The coins that I compared to original coins were identical, same color, ideal quality. There was also a "grandfather" story. There was one major difference that I found. I would rather not discuss it in the open, because I do not want a wrong person to see it. I have been using it for 8 years and do not want the fakers to fix those dies. Anyone who is interested: my email is kirilsky@hotmail.com There is definitely more than one set of dies. For example, in the word AUGUST on the reverse (at the upper left, preceding the year 1812) one finds the last two letters (YC) either level or the letter C higher than the letter Y. The published mintage for this coin is 160,000 and one pair of dies could not possibly have struck the entire coinage in late 1838, when these coins were made, given the technology of that era. It has been estimated that about 140,000 of these coins were later melted but the net mintage of, say, 20,000 does not affect the discussion. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Interesting! Julian, would you happen to have any idea how much coins could be produced from a set of dies around that era? As well as, it might be a terrible observation that I have been noticed but I seem to see a lot more damaged Borodin rubles than the Column ruble. (I am sure I have seen at least 10 different examples of such) I understand that the Borodin ruble was supposely meant to be for soldiers who fought in the Borodin ruble but appearently they were paid. Did some of the soldiers eventually buy these rubles and made them as medals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Two distinguishable die variations are known for this coin according to catalogue of Bitkin. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Two distinguishable die variations are known for this coin according to catalogue of Bitkin. WCO Bitkin 2 only lists one die for a rouble, the other for a medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted November 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Bitkin 2 only lists one die for a rouble, the other for a medal. Ok, basically what are the variaions? What is the difference? As I look at various coins i do see differences. Gxseries - do you have the time to show us any examples like you did a long time ago? Thanks much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Interesting! Julian, would you happen to have any idea how much coins could be produced from a set of dies around that era? As well as, it might be a terrible observation that I have been noticed but I seem to see a lot more damaged Borodin rubles than the Column ruble. (I am sure I have seen at least 10 different examples of such) I understand that the Borodin ruble was supposely meant to be for soldiers who fought in the Borodin ruble but appearently they were paid. Did some of the soldiers eventually buy these rubles and made them as medals? Because there are no die studies that have been done for this period, the number of coins per pair of dies is almost impossible to determine. I would guess, however, that no more than 40,000 would have been struck from a pair and perhaps as few as 20,000. The Treasury would have wanted coins of the best appearance, not like the poorly-struck circulation roubles of the 1830s and early 1840s. It is quite possible that the St. Petersburg Mint kept records of the number of dies used. Whether these records still exist can only be answered by a researcher going through the Mint archives. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted November 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1 Item number: 170052683323 Speaking of Borodino, i would like input on this coin, my favorite. What do you think of the condition, the potential grade, authenticity. Something that could be slabbed by NGC? It looks good to me. Thoughts? And what about the price? Thanks much. What are thoughts on this coin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted November 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 What are thoughts on this coin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 For those of you who likes comparing here are links to 3 different 1839 Ruble coins sold on Conros auctions at different times: 1. http://auction.conros.ru/img/231/22.jpg http://auction.conros.ru/img/231/22+.jpg 2. http://auction.conros.ru/img/168/30.jpg http://auction.conros.ru/img/168/30+.jpg 3. http://auction.conros.ru/img/195/30.jpg http://auction.conros.ru/img/195/30+.jpg WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 #1 is OK #2 is a fake #3 is hard to tell due to its bad condition. I would stay away if only for that reason. (IMXO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHV Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 For those of you who likes comparing here are links to 3 different 1839 Ruble coins sold on Conros auctions at different times: 1. http://auction.conros.ru/img/231/22.jpg http://auction.conros.ru/img/231/22+.jpg 2. http://auction.conros.ru/img/168/30.jpg http://auction.conros.ru/img/168/30+.jpg 3. http://auction.conros.ru/img/195/30.jpg http://auction.conros.ru/img/195/30+.jpg WCO #1 original #2 fake #3 ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shtirlic Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 What is your opinion about this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shtirlic Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 222 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHV Posted November 24, 2006 Report Share Posted November 24, 2006 222 My opinion is - Fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBaker Posted November 26, 2006 Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 What if some of those fakers are in our midst here? Suppose that one faker is a member and sees our posts and does their homework and the next generation of fakes become impossible to spot? I know that some people will do anything for a quick profit, and I really hate the thought that people would sell fakes as the genuine article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted November 26, 2006 Report Share Posted November 26, 2006 What if some of those fakers are in our midst here? Suppose that one faker is a member and sees our posts and does their homework and the next generation of fakes become impossible to spot? I know that some people will do anything for a quick profit, and I really hate the thought that people would sell fakes as the genuine article. Many of the fakes are offered by a relative handful of bad sellers on eBay. It is better to discuss fakes when they appear than to say nothing. The reader of these threads will learn to recognize which sellers are to be avoided. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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