WCO Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 a naive question - how is such a test performed? answer was provided in this same thread already: ...you ping it while balancing on your finger... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 answer was provided in this same thread already: This seems tricky. How do you ping something that is balancing on your finger? Wouldn't it fall off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Oldman, have you ever seen a galvanocopy with metallic high tone "bell" sound? Your question/statement implies as if you did. WCO Dear WCO, I have come accross several such cases with 5 kopeks of Catherine the Great. The coins were , no doubt, copies, however, they did "produce" sounds close to original. What these guys do in some sofisticated cases is they put metal filler inside the coin/medal. It creates a solid object with the bell sound. It is not 100% a "high" tone but pretty convincing. The problems with this "approach" are: 1. sort of expensive production 2. the weight may be way off 3. rim is still off Best regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I used to see fake 5 Kopeck pieces. They have easily visible line in the middle of the edge. May be those that you used to see were cast? Or you do not know the difference between cast and galvanocopy? In any case I would like to hear the answer about how sounds the medal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I used to see fake 5 Kopeck pieces. They have easily visible line in the middle of the edge. May be those that you used to see were cast? Or you do not know the difference between cast and galvanocopy? In any case I would like to hear the answer about how sounds the medal. Dear WCO, I believe you confuse terminology here: in English it is called electrotyping (I'm pretty sure the "galvanocopy" is a Russian term). BTW, here is an article that will help you understand the process. http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/electro.htm Also, the medals should sound exactly like the coins do.... As usually, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Prefix “Galvano” is used in both Russian and English, check out dictionaries yourself. My question was different. Are you sure that fake 5 Kopeck pieces that you used to see were made using electrotype (if you prefer this word) technology and were not cast made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Prefix “Galvano” is used in both Russian and English, check out dictionaries yourself. My question was different. Are you sure that fake 5 Kopeck pieces that you used to see were made using electrotype (if you prefer this word) technology and were not cast made? Absolutely. Also, I'd like to ask you to change the tone you are using on the forum. People here are not your pupils and you are not a teacher. Please try to be polite as some members here are , probably, older than you are and have more extensive experience in real life. Your tone does not help to maintain this forum as a comminity place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 ... I'd like to ask you to change the tone you are using on the forum. People here are not your pupils and you are not a teacher. Please try to be polite as some members here are , probably, older than you are and have more extensive experience in real life. Your tone does not help to maintain this forum as a comminity place. I myself have never seen any electrotype (galvano) copy of any coin or medal that sounds as solid struck or cast coin or medal (unless it is not one sided medal). Your information that modern counterfeiters can make such sounding counterfeits is something that I do not know about. So I am not trying to teach, I am trying to learn something. I only asked you to confirm that you saw electrotypes and there is no mistake they are not a cast made fakes (which I used to see). You chosen to "teach" me that I used wrong words (galvano instead of electrotypes) and you has an attitude here. I am asking the same question that Igors did at the beginning of this thread and it was not answered. And I do have a good reason to ask this question, even if you do not understand why I ask it. Why you even tried to make it look as if my question have no relevance in this thread with your the very first post in this thread? Who is not nice in here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 This seems tricky. How do you ping something that is balancing on your finger? Wouldn't it fall off? I usually balance it on the tip of the middle finger of my right hand and ping it with my wedding band on the other hand. It takes a little practice, but a must technique for a numismatist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I would think that lead/pewter would be a cast. But according to BKB, pewter medals did exist - made for the lower classes. I agree with BKB. Pewter medals are in existance for a long time. And yes, they were cheep. But better be sure what you are getting is struck vs. cast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 ... better be sure what you are getting is struck vs. cast. Igors, Is it known that Russian mints did not do any cast medals? Is it known that Russian mints did not do any electrotype (galvano)? Have you ever seen (held) any electrotype (galvano) made copies (counterfeits) of coins or medals that had solid sound as have genuine struck coins or medals? Thank you in advance for your answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I have seen (read: bought) a coin once, that was a galvano, but it made a pretty good ring when 1) pinged on a finger, and 2) dropped no a wooden surface. The only thing that gave it away was the line on the otherwise plain edge where the two halves were joined together. Weight matched. Good color and detail. Very good surface. To make a better case for a return, I sent it to NGC that confirmed that the coin was a galvano. However, an identical fake or fakes were earlier sold in NGC holder(s) as genuine. I would be very surprised to learn that mint was casting medals or was using electrotype technology to produce medals. The quality of casting at the time was far inferior to minting process. Electrotype technology is mainly used to make copies of the original, or to create electrodes for special metalworking process. Why are these poins important? Are you saying that a galvano copy of this medal (for we know there were struck originals) could have been produced at the mint? For what purpose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Igors, Is it known that Russian mints did not do any cast medals? Is it known that Russian mints did not do any electrotype (galvano)? Have you ever seen (held) any electrotype (galvano) made copies (counterfeits) of coins or medals that had solid sound as have genuine struck coins or medals? Thank you in advance for your answers. I will keep it short. Sorry if I will not answer all of your questions. Yes, presumably mints produced electrotypes of coins and medals. It seems they were made for exhibitions and local museums (seems appropriate for the pieces for which the are no dies in the mint's inventory). Many of us have seen one-sided "medals" with a piece of paper stuck to it's back. Well, they probably disapeared from some local museum's storage and re-appeared on Ebay. I have seen coins that make not a bad sound and I was told they were made by pressure-casting. The chance of us buying a mint produced two-sided galvano is slim-to-none. And why would we want one anyway (unless it is of some unique item )? I will leave it at that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Many of us have seen one-sided "medals" with a piece of paper stuck to it's back. Well, they probably disapeared from some local museum's storage and re-appeared on Ebay. Is that what this is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Prefix “Galvano” is used in both Russian and English, check out dictionaries yourself. My question was different. Are you sure that fake 5 Kopeck pieces that you used to see were made using electrotype (if you prefer this word) technology and were not cast made? In U.S. numismatic terminology (European may be different) a “galvano” is an inverse copper copy of the original plaster artwork, several inches in diameter; it is mounted on the Janvier machine to create a hub for making dies. An “electrotype” is a copy of the actual coin (usually both sides) made the same way as the galvano but much smaller. Sometimes the word “electrotype” is used to mean the galvano meant for the Janvier machine. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Is that what this is? This could be an electrotype or cast but is more likely a strike from a die not yet hardened for use. It was normal in the 1700s and early 1800s for an engraver to strike such one-sided pieces for submission to higher authorities. If the person ordering the work done was not quite satisfied with the uniface strike in soft metal, then the artist would try to make such corrections as could be done. If this piece is an artist’s proof in soft metal (usually lead or tin) it is a rare item as very few such pieces were made or have survived to the present time. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I will keep it short. Sorry if I will not answer all of your questions. Yes, presumably mints produced electrotypes of coins and medals. It seems they were made for exhibitions and local museums (seems appropriate for the pieces for which the are no dies in the mint's inventory). Many of us have seen one-sided "medals" with a piece of paper stuck to it's back. Well, they probably disapeared from some local museum's storage and re-appeared on Ebay. I have seen coins that make not a bad sound and I was told they were made by pressure-casting. The chance of us buying a mint produced two-sided galvano is slim-to-none. And why would we want one anyway (unless it is of some unique item )? I will leave it at that... Igors, thank you for the answers. http://rucoin.ru/dictionary/4/ ГАЛЬВАНО , гальванокопия, копия с монеты или медали, изготовленная методом гальванопластики: ... Самый надежный способ отличить копию от оригинала - проверка на звук: в отличие от чеканенной монеты гальванокопия дает низкий звук. And this is what I am comfortable with because of my own experience. I've never seen an electrotype medal or coin that sounds as real. This same info may be found on many different sites on the internet. Fake 5 Kopeck pieces I used to see were not electrotype but cast, each of them had raised line in the middle of the edge that went around entire coin. I am pretty sure many people here used to see those fakes. And cast medals or coins can easily sound as real coins; they are solid unlike electrotype. I thought so that Russian mints used to 1) cast and/or 2) make electrotypes of items such as medals. You confirmed. Since there were cast or electrotype medals legally made on Russian mints than why mint-made cast or electrotype medal is not desirable? And what are the reasons to say medal is not authentic just because it is electrotype or cast? Can you distinguish between electrotype medals made on Russian mint and outside of the mint? Can you say that medal in question was made just recently (after 1917)? Sorry if there are too many questions, I hope you will be kind enough to answer. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 I am lost now. I also thought that these were uniface strikes. However, as to rarity, these appeared on ebay in quantities at some point of time (about 2 years ago and on). I remember a whole set being sold about a year ago on german ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 ...And this is what I am comfortable with because of my own experience. I’ve never seen an electrotype medal or coin that sounds as real. ... WCO I honestly tried to stay away from the discussion this afternoon but could not resist to mention one thing. I guess the sentences above provide Mr WCO opinion's bottom line. Some people just want to believe in things they are comfortable with. Still believe this discussion was very educational for many of us. thanks, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Wow this topic took off in all kind of directions. To put this issue to sleep, the medal thuds when balanced on the "middle" finger and struck with a wedding bang WCO, I have an option of sending this one back to its seller, but may also offer it to you for the exact purchase price plus shipping. It is quite detailed and beautiful, except for the ring/thud question. I would like to extend my appreciation to all the experts in the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 but may also offer it to you for the exact purchase price plus shipping. It is quite detailed and beautiful, except for the ring/thud question.I would like to extend my appreciation to all the experts in the field. May be a good deal given the fact that there is no way to prove that this medal was made outside the mint and after 1917... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Wow this topic took off in all kind of directions. To put this issue to sleep, the medal thuds when balanced on the "middle" finger and struck with a wedding bang WCO, I have an option of sending this one back to its seller, but may also offer it to you for the exact purchase price plus shipping. It is quite detailed and beautiful, except for the ring/thud question.I would like to extend my appreciation to all the experts in the field. Thank you for providing the info on how medal sounds. I have no interest in this medal, no matter authentic or not, struck, cast or electrotype, but thank you for the offer. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Don't mention it. I only glad I brought this topic to light, as a few people learned a few things here. For sure, I will stay away from those things I don't understand. BKB, by the way u feel like posting a scan of the 1767 EM Polushka which is also likely a copy but for reasons I don't understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IgorS Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Igors, thank you for the answers. http://rucoin.ru/dictionary/4/ ГАЛЬВАНО , гальванокопия, копия с монеты или медали, изготовленная методом гальванопластики: ... Самый надежный способ отличить копию от оригинала - проверка на звук: в отличие от чеканенной монеты гальванокопия дает низкий звук. And this is what I am comfortable with because of my own experience. I've never seen an electrotype medal or coin that sounds as real. This same info may be found on many different sites on the internet. Fake 5 Kopeck pieces I used to see were not electrotype but cast, each of them had raised line in the middle of the edge that went around entire coin. I am pretty sure many people here used to see those fakes. And cast medals or coins can easily sound as real coins; they are solid unlike electrotype. I thought so that Russian mints used to 1) cast and/or 2) make electrotypes of items such as medals. You confirmed. Since there were cast or electrotype medals legally made on Russian mints than why mint-made cast or electrotype medal is not desirable? And what are the reasons to say medal is not authentic just because it is electrotype or cast? Can you distinguish between electrotype medals made on Russian mint and outside of the mint? Can you say that medal in question was made just recently (after 1917)? Sorry if there are too many questions, I hope you will be kind enough to answer. WCO Each collector has to decide for himself what to collect. If you want to collect questionable galvano/electrotypes/whatever-they-are - the prices are certainly reasonable compare to more mainstream items. Who knows, along the way you might pick up a few that are mint made. I see that you are trying to build some kind of logical path here and I think I figured out why - you have some for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Not me, the only one I have is the one I just purchased on ebay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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