NewCoin Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 I just acquired my 2006 copy of the Redbook. Making several comparisons, I find that the values listed in Coin Prices differs. Typically CP is higher. I'm puzzled. Is it because the Redbook takes a longer time to publish...and therefore the values listed are older? Or, is Redbook more conservative? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dockwalliper Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 The info in the Red book is probably 8 months old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burks Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 The figures in the Redbook are outdated. I only use the Redbook to get a general idea on what a coin would cost. Try getting a gold coin at the price the Redbook suggests. Not going to happen unless you get a great deal. http://www.pcgs.com/prices/ That's a somewhat up to date price guide. It really isn't too far off in most cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 It's not fair to say that every price listed has to follow a certain market value. Remember, in a capitalist world, pricing depends severely on supply and demand. A catalogue book that catalogues price list is nothing more than a mere observation of how much a certain coin is worth at that particular time it was recorded and perhaps the authors would try to predict how much it could go for in the future. You could say that catalogues might be conservative at times, if not, demand has gone higher. A catalogue at best is to give people an idea how much one's coin is worth, that is if they can understand how the catalogue works, i.e. know the difference between XF and VF, genuine and counterfeited etc. It's indeed difficult to know what exactly is the truth, and hence, you should not just plainly believe catalogue value and observe real time pricing. That way, you might be able to understand how pricings might occur. Another good idea to find out why some coins might be rare is their history. Everything has their own story for the pricing you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmarotta Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 Price guides are just that: GUIDES. If the price guide says $15 and you see the coin right there for $17, you might be able to point to the guide to get the lower price. The dealer might not budge. The dealer might tell you that if you want one for $15, buy it from Red Book because this one here costs $17. You want to sell a coin and Greysheet says $178 and the dealer might tell $140 and if you want $178, then sell it to Greysheet. The point of course is that the reporting guides neither buy nor sell -- they have no inventory to offer, just opinions. In fact, if you read the fine print, Greysheet says that the listing of any price does NOT mean that any such coin was ever for sale. When I worked for COIN WORLD, I had to cover some auctions that the Trends (now called "Values") editor could not get to. The dealers sit with several price guides, just to help them get a feel for the expected pricing at the retail level. $17.50 or $20... $175 or $200... $1750 or $2000... What counts is the RANGE, not the nominal "price" according to this price guide or that. The only price that counts is the hammer price, the real actual paid price. That price depends on how motivated the buyer is to have one of these things. If you read the ads in Coin World and other magazines, you will see Goldberg and PCGS bragging that their coins sell for more than list. Those sales cause important changes in the next round of price guides. If I have the names right, Lyman Lowe and Henry Chapman got into a wrestling match over the purchase of a "Clover Leaf Cent" at an auction. Sometimes, price is irrelevant. These price guides exist because collectors demand them of publishers. Dealers use networks of information different from those. Dealers do look at Greysheet, Red Book, etc., as part of the overall information matrix. Greysheet is a retail price guide. Greysheet costs $100 a year and they will sell it to anyone. However, dealers have their own pricing systems. Former coin dealer Bill Bradford just passed away. Over 30 years ago, I worked for him punching up price lists to be fed into a teletype. A couple of years ago, when John Ford died, the biographies mentioned how he used to run coins between stores in New York City. That was an example of pricing network not known -- or knowable -- to collectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmarotta Posted January 10, 2006 Report Share Posted January 10, 2006 ... in a capitalist world, pricing depends severely on supply and demand. ... By "capitalist world" you mean "the entire universe" of course. The laws of "human action," i.e., economics apply to every volitional creature. Any sentient being is bound by these same laws, as completely as we are by the law of gravity. It might be said that even animals and plants are, as well, since they exhibit complex behaviors -- predators take out the old, young, and sick; they do not grapple with healthy adults if they can avoid it; that seems like an "economic' decision, an attempt at maximum gain for the least effort. Plants send out tendrils around a rock that the same net effort might lift. However, the tendrils are an example of "hedging your bets" versus "putting all your eggs in one basket." You come up with something other than supply and demand and I'll consider your theory. By the way, demand drives the cycle. Basically, every market is a buyer's market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauldean89445 Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Michael, As usual, you nailed it! I am forever impressed with your extremely wide knowlege on just about every subject you touch. Thumbs up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 ... in a capitalist world, pricing depends severely on supply and demand. ... By "capitalist world" you mean "the entire universe" of course. ... You come up with something other than supply and demand and I'll consider your theory. By the way, demand drives the cycle. Basically, every market is a buyer's market. I somewhat agree but disagree. Looking at current issues of coins and medals, I think we would need to look at what is wrong with current issues. By the original defination of coins, coins are supposed to be meant as cash transaction and should be left as it is. However in current days, the difference between coins and medals are somewhat thinning down. In my opinion, there should be no more nonsense commemorative coins. One, who isn't into numismatic would even struggle to be able to tell what is usable currency and what is not. For example, would kilo silver, gold coins be any good? Perhaps, it would be some government scheme to back the currency in such bullion format. I would be much happier to see them in bullion form, or in bullion coin form. Again, demand does drives the market for such nonsense coins. In the past, where you have the two world of thought, which is the left and right. The leftist idea of providing everyone equality seems to be impossible as there is no way you can, no matter how much natural resources a country might have. Indeed that is true, and hence, the Soviets removed all precious metals in coinage in early 1930s, much earlier than most of European and American counterparts and replaced their coinages by brass, ni-cupro coins. Precious metals were then either used as industrial uses or sold abroad. Providing equality amongst all and for future generation is realized. By controlling coinage issues, the Soviets were able to mint millions of commemorative Soviet ni-cupro coins, enough for each person in Russia to proudly own one, if not transact with one. In my opinion, in recent year most mints are selfish to mint enough coins. Sadly, this I know well enough that government nowadays in most countries will not foot a single penny in the whole mint process even though they are supposely government owned. Being said that, I personally admire programs such as the 50 state quarter in the US, or the silver euros in EU, or the confederate states in Australia. By minting proof coins of such does not really my mind either, as it is a representation of coins that did or do circulate in the country. Bullion coins as well is an excellent usage as people can buy or sell them (but why coins - it might as well be in terms of bars). But to have limit on mintage is absurd - as long as the die and hub are not broken, why can't there be more coins issued from it? Does the mints always have to rely on artificial demand to keep up with their operations? Ethics-wise and numisatics wise, this could be quite contriversal, but it has been done in the past in terms of novodels or restrikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDJMSP Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 The only price that counts is the hammer price, the real actual paid price. That price depends on how motivated the buyer is to have one of these things. This is the key. If you read the ads in Coin World and other magazines, you will see Goldberg and PCGS bragging that their coins sell for more than list. Those sales cause important changes in the next round of price guides. The important word when a seller makes such comment is list. You need to know exactly what list the seller is referring to. And that depends on who is making the comment. But as a general rule the "list" will be the Greysheet + 20%. The price guides, like Coin Values, Coin Market, Coin Prices, the PCGS guide, Red Book etc are not worth the paper they are printed on to a collector who wants to know what he can get if he sells a given coin. Generally most of these price guides will values that are too high by as much as 50%. Sometimes they are even too low by 50%. Only on extremely rare, and I do mean rare, occasions are they anywhere near reality. If you want realistic values for your coins - look at realized auction prices. That's it - nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu62 Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Check out Heritages auction archives at Heritagecoins.com.They go back a few years and you can really track a certain date etc.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Check out Heritages auction archives at Heritagecoins.com.They go back a few years and you can really track a certain date etc.. I agree. In general look at actual prices realized. You standardize the value to current $ is desired. But real prices at real auctiions and sales are what matter. Abstract lists are only useful as guides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burks Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Check out Heritages auction archives at Heritagecoins.com.They go back a few years and you can really track a certain date etc.. Another way, although it may be less accurate, is to check Ebay. Auctions like that can give you an idea of what coins are going for at THAT time and not 6 months ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Sisu Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Another way, although it may be less accurate, is to check Ebay. Auctions like that can give you an idea of what coins are going for at THAT time and not 6 months ago. Not only that, but if one is trying to gauge the market for more common grade coins, my guess is that eBay and similar ilk will be more representative than Heritage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccg Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 Just keep in mind when using ebay that how a coin is listed (category, description, lack thereof, or mis-description) will affect the sale total (which should also take into account the s/h) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28Plain Posted January 11, 2006 Report Share Posted January 11, 2006 The redbook's prices are the author's opinion of what the coins are worth. In some cases, the prices are far from the actual market value. I use the redbook for identification, for years of production of types, and for mintage figures. The values listed there aren't really very useful to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu62 Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 I agree. In general look at actual prices realized. You standardize the value to current $ is desired. But real prices at real auctiions and sales are what matter. Abstract lists are only useful as guides. Couldn't have said it better myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu62 Posted January 12, 2006 Report Share Posted January 12, 2006 Not only that, but if one is trying to gauge the market for more common grade coins, my guess is that eBay and similar ilk will be more representative than Heritage. Very true, Heritage tends to sell stuff for $100 and up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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