Brilliant? Verses: Toned??

[2coins]

I have listened to other collectors and dealers over the past many years on their collecting thoughts, Brilliant UNC, or recent few years, TONED coins for the max profit down the road.

Some of you will remember, even still today that the old time collectors really went for the best natural "WHITE" coins they could get, or as much "RED" on the coppers they could get. I do like them and agree!!, I also like the TONED coins also, and prices have been absolutely CRAZY!!on them.But to keep things in collecting perspective, I will have to say with the hard earned money we pay for the BIG BOYS!as a true gem, I'd have to put the money invested on the "WHITE" coins hands down.

After alot of thought on this subject, I conclude this BECOUSE< Toned coins are, and always be, INVIORMENTAL DAMAGED in some shape, way, or form period!. They get toned from changes around them, So,,,What is more CONDITION= RARE?? I ask you?, A "WHITE" coin totaly untouched by the atmosphere? or one that has been?

So, What I will do is collect BOTH!!and see in the long-run which will come out the long time best way to collect high dollar US coins.........??

[Art]

I have to agree with you that natural original finish coins will probably hold their value better in the long run. Toned coins are certainly running high on the price charts at the moment. I'm not a big fan of toning. I have a few toned coins that are quite pleasing to the eye, but I'd be very reluctant to pay extra for them. I think it's a fad in the market.

[AuldFartte]

I've been known to pay "stupid money" for a nicely toned coin

But I'll take 'em any way I can get 'em.

[09S-V.D.B]

Toned coins are another fab.

My 2 cents.....

[Guest Stujoe]

There is one thing to consider.

 

It only takes a second or two to turn a toned coin into a white coin. It takes quite a while longer (or in some cases quite a bit more skill ) to turn a white coin into (naturally looking) toned coin.

[syzygy]

My feelings at present (always subject to correction and other forms of revision) ...

 

1. Silver coins that are 50 or more years old should, logically, show some tarnish unless the environment was atypical.

 

2. I like blast white silver in an AU/MS, but I am becoming more cognizant that many, if not,*most*, have been dipped.

 

3. I don't really like bizarre pastel toning. Even when it's not artificial, it just doesn't strike me well. Although, I admit that some of them are impressive.

 

4. I do like 'golden' album-style toning on old silver. The type that is subtle and strongest at the outside and fading into the center.

 

5. I am tolerant of darker and speckled toning when I can appreciate it as a sign of original surface.

 

6. I get POd when dealers raise prices and write 'toned' on the 2 X 2 for everything that has not been dipped.

[Burks]

I like toned and blast white coins equally. What I don't like is the price difference. If I find a nicely toned, whether it be dark or bright, coin for the price of a "normal" coin, I'll buy it over the normal one. Even a very small premium is ok.

[Benz Coinz]

I'll go with Brilliant Uncirculated and Colorfully Toned coins. I don't like dull gray or ugly toning. My two cents

[GDJMSP]

So,,,What is more CONDITION=  RARE?? I ask you?, A "WHITE" coin totaly untouched by the atmosphere?

 

 

 

I'd like to ask you - how does this happen ? Airtight, or even close to airtight, coin holders didn't exist until a few years ago. So how does a coin remain blast white and untouched by the atmosphere ?

 

Toning begins to occur the very moment a coin is struck - it is simply the nature of metal to tone unless it is protected from the air. And since that wasn't possible - let's say with coins issued before 1930 for the sake of argument - when I see a coin issued before that and it is blast white - the very first thing I think of is that its surfaces have been altered by man.

 

Now those who prefer white coins are certainly welcome to do so - I used to be one of them myself. But for me - I prefer my coins with original, natural surfaces.

[2coins]

I understand your thinking of how could coins that old retain "Mint Luster?" Well they do.....A trained eye can 90%of the time, tell if its original mint luster tone, verses 'Dipped'...I have Looked at alot of Morgans and mecury dimes, buffalo nickles, I have even seen bust halves ,bust dimes, bust quarters ect... with full mint untouched luster,and yes in alot of coins with a tint of natural tone.These are the Money coins for serious investors,the full rainbow toned coins are a Fad right now in my opinion, I love them also!, but to put a few thousand in a coin, Full brilliant-white mint luster is the way to go in the long haul.............

[Guest Stujoe]

Have you seen the electron microscope pictures of a dipped versus an undipped coin in Travers' Survival Manual. There is certainly a noticeable difference at 3500x magnification. But that is pretty high magnification and they were a 15 Second 'dip'. 15 seconds is really a soaking, not a dip.

 

I think people can tell an overdipped or many multiple dipped or an improperly dipped coin fron the surfaces adn luster. But I have my doubts about very many people being able to tell about the first or second ,1 or 2 second dip on a coin.

[GDJMSP]

I understand your thinking of how could coins that old retain "Mint Luster?" Well they do.....A trained eye can 90%of the time, tell if its original mint luster tone, verses 'Dipped'...I have Looked at alot of Morgans and mecury dimes, buffalo nickles, I have even seen bust halves ,bust dimes, bust quarters ect... with full mint untouched luster,and yes in alot of coins with a tint of natural tone.These are the Money coins for serious investors,the full rainbow toned coins are a Fad right now in my opinion, I love them also!, but to put a few thousand in a coin, Full brilliant-white mint luster is the way to go in the long haul.............

 

That is not what I am saying at all. A toned coin does not lose its luster in any way shape or form, regardless of how old it is. The luster is still there - under the toning, and it is still quite visible. I have coins that are 800 years old with full luster.

 

What I am saying is that it is all but physically impossible for a coin that is exposed to the air to NOT tone. And that if you have a coin is 100 yrs old and blast white and has no toning whatsoever - that coin has been dipped and the toning that was originally there has been removed. And yes, that coin CAN still have luster. But it will not have as much as it originally had.

 

My comments have nothing to do with likes, dislikes, how much a coin is worth or whether the popularity of toning is a fad or not. My comments only have to do with what is physically possible and what is not.

[2coins]

Yes your 100% correct, (luster under the toneing) BUT...I have seen and owned coins that were dipped and re-toned and you can tell most of the time.As far as being dipped for a few seconds, your correct, Ive done it myself to a badly toned American Eagle, you really cound not tell it was done...thats why I said 90% of the time. But do you agree, that if your gonna put the money down for future gains, Brilliant is best??? I think so myself.But Iam still a sucker for the toners!!

[GDJMSP]

But do you agree, that if your gonna put the money down for future gains, Brilliant is best??? I think so myself.But Iam still a sucker for the toners!!

 

 

No I do not agree. But I will agree with one part of your comments and that is that at the present time atractively toned coins are quite popular, on a widespread basis, within the numismatic community. The fad,for lack of a better word, began about 4 years ago.

 

For many years, brilliant, blast white silver coins were the most widely sought after by collectors. There has always been a segment among collectors who preferred attractively toned coins, but they were few in number. This is because numismatists, like people in so many other things in life, largely tend to follow the advice and example of those considered to be advanced in the field. And for that long period of time those recognized as leaders in the field tended to collect and offer for sale blast white coins. Furthermore, there is story after story recounted by these highly respected collectors and dealers where they talk of taking a toned coin, dipping it, and finding a "beauty" underneath. That is how dipping coins came to be so widely accepted. For the average collector would say to himself - if so and so can do it, so can I. Thus for the longest time, blast white coins were all the rage.

 

I can understand that, as I said before, I was one of those people who preferred my coins blast white. And I suppose it is only human nature to be that way. With most of those new to coin colleting the first thing they want to do is make their old dirty coins bright and shiny. And for many years, perhaps even centuries, cleaning your coins was widely accepted as the "right thing" to do. But then that changed.

 

Why did it change though ? It changed because those respected in the coin collecting field proposed the idea that cleaning coins altered the originality of the coins. And since people tend to follow the advice and example of those they respect and look up to, eventually the idea of cleaning coins faded away and it came to be thought of as a bad thing.

 

Now here's the part that will explain why I disagree with you about blast white coins being the way to go. As I said in the beginning of this rather long winded post, the wide popularity of toned coins began about 4 years ago. But why did it begin ? What happened to change things ?

 

The answer to that is quite simple, those individuals, highly repsected in the field of numismatics, began to propose the idea that dipping coins may not be such a good idea after all. I suppose this came about because they began to see coins that had been dipped one too many times. And the reason they were dipped one too many times was because no matter what you do - a coin is going to tone. And since most prefer blast white coins - a toned coin is a bad thing - so they dipped it again. But dipping a coin removes a small amount of the luster. And after a coin has been dipped several times - the luster is gone entirely and the coin has been changed, altered, ruined even - for eternity. Nothing you can do will ever restore that luster.

 

So - this idea began to spread among respected collectors and dealers. And they began to seek out coins with original surfaces, toned surfaces - coins that had never been dipped. And again - the average collector began to follow this example. That brings us to today.

 

Right now, toned coins are popular. But they are largely popular because the average collector thinks they are pretty. Most of them don't even consider the idea yet that coin has original surfaces - that it has not been altered by man trying to make it look better. But the idea is spreading and collectors are to beginning to understand. And I believe, in time, it will be the most widely accepted idea there has ever been in regard to coins.

 

So, it is my opinion that if, as you say, "your gonna put the money down for future gains" - it had better be on toned coins.

[2coins]

thanks very much for your input,as with coins goes the other antiques that in the same time period people did the same thing, re-blue guns, refinnish furniture, ect...Coin dealers and the other antique dealers found they can get more bucks for unaltered items that trying to up-grade by means of enhancing them

Some toned coins are dipped and retoned over time, one must be very carefull, thats why white brilliant full luster coins are easyer to grade in my opinion, I enjoyed everyones thoughts on this, time will tell, Ill collect BOTH!

[pauldean89445]

I think you hit the nail Squarly on the head. Where i live, here in the Philippines, it is IMPOSSIBLE to find an uncirculated coin that is not "toned". Given the heat and humidity, salt air, and what that all does to Silver...and, WALLA! The ONLY "blast-white" Silver Peso (or any other silver coin from here) that i've ever seen, came with a history. An AMERICAN collector that captured one many moons ago, and returned it across the big pond, only to flick it off at Heritage.

[Ætheling]

I really dig bright red coppers. If it's red i like it... when copper coins start toning i lose interest.

 

Silver coins it depends. Coinage struck after 1800 i like it as white as possible.

 

Coinage before i like it greyscale.

 

 

Anything silver that's not grey or white i actively avoid. I particularly dislike rainbow toning, crescent toning, perhiperal toning, and the one that i really, really can't live with, speckled.

 

In the words of Christopher Lloyd "bring me some dip". I'd rather collect dipped bright white coins than colourful coins, since in my opinion dipped coins look nicer because i find colourful toning detracts the eye from the details.

[Sir Sisu]

...

 

Silver coins it depends. Coinage struck after 1800 i like it as white as possible.

 

Coinage before i like it greyscale.

Anything silver that's not grey or white i actively avoid. I particularly dislike rainbow toning, crescent toning, perhiperal toning, and the one that i really, really can't live with, speckled.

 

In the words of Christopher Lloyd "bring me some dip". I'd rather collect dipped bright white coins than colourful coins, since in my opinion dipped coins look nicer because i find colourful toning detracts the eye from the details.

 

 

Interesting! I find that I feel the same way with practically all of what you wrote about the silver stuff (the dateline is the only difference -perhaps 1900+ for me ); particularly about the toning. When the tone starts changing colors, I get turned off. I enjoy looking at them, and can find them attractive, but I just do not desire to actively acquire such coins. And if it must be a colored tone, then at least let it be an even tone.

[Ætheling]

And if it must be a colored tone, then at least let it be an even tone.

 

 

This is the buzz word in the UK. Even = good, uneven = bad.

 

As GD stated coin trends are all about following what those that are respected think. I however, have my own mind about such matters and buy coins to please myself, not to be with the in-crowd.