orfordmike Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Bahabully has raised an interesting question about this extremely strange penny. Do the secondary images on opposite faces align? Well, yes, they do. If you hold the coin with the secondary figure of Lincoln upright and then flip it over forward (or backward); if you, in other words, use "coin turn" to turn it over, the secondary reverse elements then facing you are also upright. They are upside-down to the secondary elements on the other side. My use of the word "into" as in "pressed into etc." in my original description has misled several. Pressed onto might have been a better choice of words, or something else entirely. As is readily apparent if you see enlarged images of it and obvious when you look at the actual coin (and I wish all of you could) both primary and secondary devices on both sides are raised up on those surfaces, not depressed, or sunk, or pressed, into them. Had I known a coin could give the appearance of being struck by squeezing it against another one, or between two of them, I wouldn't have expressed myself so carelessly. This coin, if it hasn't been struck and then overstruck opposite to it's original striking after rotating part of a turn by a die at the mint, has been struck by unknown objects bearing very good likenesses to two mint dies. But as I said, in addition to this I see or think I see evidence of worn out or damaged dies here too- Two capital letters in ONE are nearly missing, the first numeral in the secondary date appears to be broken off halfway down and there's raised metal that I think is called a cud at one point on the rim of the primary reverse at about 2 oclock. But my definition of what's primary and what's secondary may also be misleading; it looks to me like the coin was originally struck with images that are now "secondary", these having for the most part been smashed flat and replaced with the ones I'm understanding to be the "primary" ones. What I call primary images are the obvious ones on both sides. If you didn't look too closely at this cent in days gone by you'd have spent it in a bubble gum machine. These days you'd have to use a quarter. The Lost Dutchman has tried to send me something but the file was so big it shut down my email. I'll contact him and see if he'll send it to me again. I've sent inquiries to PCGS and to Ken Potter, an error specialist, but have as yet received no replies from either of them. Mr. Potter, before I sent him images, wanted me to mail him the coin, but if this coin goes anywhere until somebody convinces me it's fake I go with it. When I think of all the fuss that's made over a missing mintmark on some of the '22 cents it brings me up short. The penny I'm holding in my hand has so many omissions, additions and defacings all over it that it makes such a detail seem minor. Take that as a challenge if you want; I'm no expert but this thing looks real to me and if it is then it isn't an insignificant numismatic item. Best regards, Mike Orford Juneau, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 here are the pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiffibunny Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 This coin has a LOT of damage....I don't think that is a cud at K2 it looks more like rim damage to me but without seeing the rim I can't tell...the areas under "Liberty" on the obverse and that area directily across from it are intresting...without the coin in hand I would call that damage....but it could be struck through the feeder fingers...the only thing that makes me think that something is fishy is the fact that the design is transfered to the high points of the coin...every flip over double strike I have ever seen has lots of detail in the feilds and hardly any in the struck area because the second strike obliterates the first one except in the feilds...definitely an intresting coin....but there are things that just don't make any sense...If you have seen vice done coins you should recognize the area above "unum" on the reverse....I am intrested to hear what others have to say about this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 1 more point if it does turn out to be real it's only going to be worth $100-$200 for all the damage....flip overs are more common then one would think most of them get snatched up very quickly because it is a very noticeable error and you almost always see them in Unc. that's something else that seems funny to me about this coin the fact that it is circ and has a damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orfordmike Posted September 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Dammit, I just hit the back button to check something and lost all the text in my next post. Well, to get on, I agree that all the damage to the surfaces of this coin, particularly on the rim, lowers its value if one assumes it occurred in circulation but I question why it's necessary to do so. I've never toured a mint or seen a film of pennies being struck but think it plausible that such damage might have happened at some point along the way during the coin's manufacture. The contours of the flattened area around the underside of Lincoln are of something deformed, but what? I agree that the flattening above E PLURIBUS UNUM is peculiar, but think it might also have happened at the mint. The little cluster of globs on the reverse at two o'clock is prominent enough to noticeably stretch the clear plastic film over that point inside a 2x2 cardboard holder. It looks like spatter. If it's not a cud I have no explanation for it (not sure what a cud is; I'll Google it). As to where this penny came from, I have only sketchy information. It was loaned to me by a seller on Ebay who's since become a friend from whom I acquired the 1914 D Lincoln now in my cent collection; an XF beauty. She rather graciously included the '34 cent with my purchase per my request to get a firsthand look at it. She lives in the heart of thoroughbred racehorse country in Kentucky and isn't a coin dealer. Styles herself judgeb93; I recommend her as an Ebay seller. All for now, Best regards, and thanks for your interest. Mike Orford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syzygy Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Hmmmm very interesting looking coin. So, if it is a flip-over double strike, it got struck normally and then, instead of ejecting, flipped over and landed inside the collar for the second strike - that is very rare indeed from what I am reading e.g. http://www.bakercoins.net/learn/error.ed/flipover/index.html Some things kind of jump out at me...the flattened collar...the wear. Here are some other flip over double strikes: http://minterrornews.com/features-2-22-03-flipover_cent.html http://www.fredweinberg.com/inventory/item.asp?ID=3070 http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=2806 (not certified) Why not send it off to ANACS or otherwise try to get it certified with an expert opinion? If it comes back real, it would add greatly to the $ you could get if you are trying to sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orfordmike Posted September 30, 2005 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Thank you very much for your post. Yes, I'm searching for the right grading service to submit it to although last I knew the owner wasn't interested in selling it; it's in learning as much about it as she can. Of course if it turns out to be worth a raceworthy colt or two (she trains racehorses) I'll bet she'd change her mind. I especially appreciate your links to known "flipover" double strikes; who knows where following them might lead? I thought PCGS might have an error specialist among their graders but am also sceptical of all the glory they've been basking in as preeminent authorities on grading the past few years. ANACS may very well be the right people to send it to; I just don't want it getting "lost" along the way. Again, thanks for the links. That flattening you mention jumps out at me too. On the obverse under Lincoln I see what looks like more cud deposits overlaying the edge of part of the flattened area when seen through a loupe and on the back above UNUM a score mark divides the M and one leg of the second U. The "flattening" has some sort of texture to it like the field nearby; it doesn't look "squeezed" at all. There's some form of deposit where one of the legs of the missing N in ONE ought to be, which can best be seen when turning the coin in certain light. I learn something new about it practically every time I examine it closely. Mike Orford Juneau, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Of course if it turns out to be worth a raceworthy colt or two (she trains racehorses) I'll bet she'd change her mind. I truly doubt it...but you never know The error market is kind of down right now...in the error hayday that coin (if real) would have been in the $600-700 range but now after several very large error collections have come up for auction and lots of neat coins have been sold to collectors...I would value a real Flip over D/S in that condition in the $200-$300 range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmpearso Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 The rim "damage" looks like its part of the second strike rather than damage that happened in its travels... Just my .01 wheatback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orfordmike Posted October 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Yes! By following that link provided by SYZYGY to Baker Numismatics I found what I think is the core of the answer to my WHATIZZIT query posted on this site: The cent in question is a flipover double strike with a lot of detail, some as yet unexplained. I'm satisfied that if proven genuine by a grading service then after being struck once this penny flipped over and landed back in it's collar (or some other collar) and then was struck again either by the die that struck it the first time or by another die. I judge it to be worth at least a million dollars and hereby offer it for sale on behalf of the owner to the Lost Dutchman. Thank heavens! I thought I was going to have to pay for my kid's college education myself! Seriously (more or less) I'm as glad to have made discovery of the CoinPeople web site as I am to have been entrusted with the task of partially unraveling this little mystery. It's a pleasure to meet everybody and I look forward to a long, educational and pleasant association. Oh. I'm looking for a job in a coin shop. Anybody know of one that'll hire me? Willing to relocate, especially with winter coming up. Reach me at rorford@gci.net What a hobby! Mike Orford Juneau, Alaska Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 I judge it to be worth at least a million dollars and hereby offer it for sale on behalf of the owner to the Lost Dutchman. Ummmmmm No, I'll pass.... that means my double struck Indian head cent must be worth like $10 Million!! WOOHOO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 A million? I would like to get a house first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 If you want to send it to a grading company send it to ANACS they work with (I think) Fred Weinberg to authenticate their errors...That's where I send all my errors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orfordmike Posted October 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Thanks for the tip. I just emailed Mr. Weinberg. Not sure I can submit to him directly or if it has to be through a grading service but hope to know shortly. Regards, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 The error dealers such as Mr. Weinberg get hundreds of e mails a week about this or that weird looking cent and a lot of the time they simply can't get to them all..My best advice is to either send the coin to ANACS or take it to a show and show it to Mr. Weinberg or Ken Potter, or Mike Buyers, or Rich Schemmer.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orfordmike Posted October 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Uh Oh, the plot thickens. Reply from Ken Potter, copied and pasted into here; somebody's intuition about rim damage seems to have caught his attention too. Mike, There are some possibilities that it is genuine but the flat damage along the lower rim in particular (which occured later) makes it suspect. I'd rather not make a call on this one. Sincerely yours, Ken Ken Potter Dang, the Secret Service could come knocking on my door for having it! I may be hounded into exile! Think I'll pick someplace warm and dry......Las Vegas has a nice ring to it. Will keep you posted. Best regards, Mike Orford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bahabully Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 Ken's always been good at answering my questions the best he can also. Guess you'll have to keep pitching the quarters into the educational kitty like the rest of us poor working class slobs ; ) Speaking of which,,, have you looked at tuition costs lately?!!! Man, some of the books costs are as much as the class tuition costs were when I went. ;( gonna have to start pitchin' dollars instead of quarters I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 There goes off the dream of a million dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orfordmike Posted October 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 OK, half a million. I'm willing to be reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 That coin sure is weird.....I have seen a lot of these....but none that I have seen had any post mint damage....It could be a real peice that someone a long time ago thought was not and decided "it's already messed up why not mess it up more?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 I don't see how you come to the price tag of half a million usd. Here is a decent dealer who deals with US error coins. With a million USD, you can cleanly wipe out his front page. http://www.byersnc.com/ He has a large inventory of them and most probably would have come across errors like yours. You might want to email him and ask his opinion on the coin and the value etc. Afterall, you can't really believe in us, do you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted October 1, 2005 Report Share Posted October 1, 2005 hahaha mike wouldn't even give that coin the time of day..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orfordmike Posted October 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2005 'morning, folks- I haven't died or moved to Vegas; I've emailed Fred Weinberg and Mike Byers and am waiting for replies, which could take some time. Not much I can do but wait. Took my Lincoln oddity to a collectibles show in a local mall yesterday with some six-inch wide blowups off my printer and had a blast showing them to the curious. Not much experience with coins where I live; a few collectors, not even a decent coin shop. Have a good day, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conder101 Posted October 3, 2005 Report Share Posted October 3, 2005 Can't comment. All I see are red X's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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