alexbq2 Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 So it's the "chicken or the egg", are Novodels here because old references listed this coin, or are old references listing the Novodels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Very very interesting. The "novodel" or rather "starodel" that Steve has shown is a 1781/88, which is really bizarre! As of why it was done, I have no idea. Would definitely be keeping an eye on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 If it is the Novodels that were seen in 1850s collections and were listed in an 1833 table, this means they weren't cooked up in the late 1870s for some industrial fair or for a late-period grand duke. I have an image of another novodel (russian auction) from the exact same die as the Berlin coin. An apparently different-die Novodel coin (also out of russia) shows an under-8 but the job is botched and I also dont see the die cracks seen in the Berlin example. Will try to post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Same die as Berlin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Different looking die (MiM36/2006) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 Done. One of the experts on copper, said that there is something similar in the Smithsonian (not the same coin). In his opinion it (the Smithsonian coin) is an old antiquarian forgery. http://coins.su/foru...showtopic=98032 http://www.staraya-m...um1/topic34903/ Hi Alex, thank you for your effort - as far as I can understand the outcome it is pretty disappointing. As it seems people there don't take the thread serious. For them it is clear that the last digit is altered --> fake - full stop. Nobody cares about the novodel with its altered date, nobody shows and discusses pictures, nobody gets curious about -why 1781-. They don't have anybody like Steve, Josh, Alex, Hisa, Eugene. Too bad - Sigi - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 14, 2012 Report Share Posted December 14, 2012 C'est la vie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 As anything and everything is now fake, have they concluded the same for all that tea in Markov's upcoming auction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Sigi, I think that in order to discuss the possibility of this coin, there should be: 1) much better photos of this coin; 2) photos of the first and second "1" in good resolution. Otherwise, it is like discussing a UFO photograph. Someone shows a cellphone photo, that is not even that good for a cell phone, of a unique coin, and there are 2 pages of discussion... No wonder people on russian forum do not take this seriously, -- their reaction is completely justified. After all, this coin should not exist (as you well know). Therefore, one must do a damn better job than that crappy photo to prove otherwise. Just my 2c. P.S. Steve, I am 100% sure there is an error in Ilyin -- a 10 ruble coin would definitely show up at some point, with 40 -- 150 ruble coins popping up from time to time... Novodel with different edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Agreed with BKB - you would think someone with a rather rare coin would have funds to buy a proper camera. Probably enough to buy a whole camera shop (?) Would be interested to see a better photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Hardly high resolution but this is a closer look at the catalog image taken from a scan I made years ago. It may scan at higher resolution, but I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 The question stands. Why a Novodel of 1781 CPM 5 Kop. ? anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Don't know (yet) but it seems it was done early, as I've already said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 I'm curious, how ubiquitous were Novodels in 1830's? I tried to find 4 kopeeks 1761 (only exists as a Novodel) in Chaudoir - didn't find it. Can anyone think of other coins that exist only as Novodels? I'd like to cross reference them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 That 1757 5K with Catherine cipher springs to mind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 I'm curious, how ubiquitous were Novodels in 1830's? I tried to find 4 kopeeks 1761 (only exists as a Novodel) in Chaudoir - didn't find it. Can anyone think of other coins that exist only as Novodels? I'd like to cross reference them. my avatar -- 1782 km Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 If you count different design (completely) like in 1810 em -- then, there is a whole bunch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 I flipped through Chaudoir again, did not find the 1757 but the 1782 KM polushka is there! Same story as the 1781 SPM 5 kopeeks. I would say this implies that these Novodels were struck prior to 1830's and that the author did not realize they were Novodels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 16, 2012 Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Thisw story is common. If you "flip" through GM, you will see that the whole 1830 spb series are novodels listed as originals... And, there are many more examples there, I am sure... There was an article on the history of novodels. Also, from the fact of 1722 2 ruble,as well as novodels of most medals, -- we know that those were produced pretty early on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2012 Agreed with BKB - you would think someone with a rather rare coin would have funds to buy a proper camera. Probably enough to buy a whole camera shop (?) Would be interested to see a better photo. Right, the numismatist has been busy with Russian coins for 50 years, but now he is very old, in poor shape, not able to photograph a coin, his name is nearly forgotten (his neighbor made the picture). We have been friends for 40 years. I'm urging him to send me the coin for inspection. But even packing and shipping is difficult for him. He promised to try. Once I have the coin, I'll be back with better pictures. Sigi - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 P.S. Steve, I am 100% sure there is an error in Ilyin -- a 10 ruble coin would definitely show up at some point, with 40 -- 150 ruble coins popping up from time to time... Novodel with different edge. I just checked -- last page of Ilyin -- error is corrected. Both are novodels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 Last page of what now? My Ilyin & Tolstoi (1910) shows no such correction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 I will make a copy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 17, 2012 Report Share Posted December 17, 2012 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.