sigistenz Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 The 5kop1781СПМ is only known as a novodel. An expert oldtimer who has been 40-50 years in Russian coins sent me the (poor cellphone) pictures of this coin of his. These are not the novodel dies. The novodels were not overstrikes. And they did not circulate. What do the experts make out of this? Thank you, Sigi - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 My first thought would be an altered date. The 1 digits dont seem quite the same in this photo. Have you seen the coin in person? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 That should be literally - Impossible! So Josh must have it right 88 recut into 81. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 This reminded me that I had a similarly amazing picture for Sigi. Found it on some russian forum: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 My first thought would be an altered date. The 1 digits dont seem quite the same in this photo. Have you seen the coin in person? The 1781 novodels have a visibly recut date (1781/8). With the coin shown above no alteration is visible. Yes, he showed me the coin abt. 10-15 years ago but then I was not yet specialized in the series. Not being extremely fine or AU, I gave it no second glance. Sigi - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 This reminded me that I had a similarly amazing picture for Sigi. Found it on some russian forum: Thank you for showing - this die combination coin exists. Wolmar 2012 catalog values it $3500/XF. But at an auction it could fetch much more. Sigi - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Sigi, do you have an image handy for the 1781 spm NOVODEL? Why would a Novodel have been requested or struck, if no original had existed? Was there a rumor or anecdote of such a coin existing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 I've seen this 1781 before...years ago....an old Gorny Sale I think. The last digit in the example from that catalog looked altered. I'll see if I have images to see if it's the same coin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 12, 2012 Report Share Posted December 12, 2012 Well...my Gorny's from that time are all buried in storage beneath crates of other catalogs which keep arriving and piling up I'd guess Sale 27, from 1984, but I could be wrong. If anyone has a copy handy, please take a look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Is it just me or is there an odd discoloration right around the last digit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Is it just me or is there an odd discoloration right around the last digit? hard tell, without a better pic. that might be some undercoin. what is in that spot, eagles wing or shoulder area i would guess? I think you should buy it none the less, Sigi, just to have a closer look and solve the puzzle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I would rather get that 1774! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Well...my Gorny's from that time are all buried in storage beneath crates of other catalogs which keep arriving and piling up I'd guess Sale 27, from 1984, but I could be wrong. If anyone has a copy handy, please take a look. Hi Steve, congrats! Gorny was right, but it was Gorny 109 of April 2001. See scan below. I think the coin did not sell then, but will make sure. As the "7" of 1781 differs, these are not the novodel dies. Note that the 1781 novodel has a recut date (1781/8), maybe the funny first 8 is also recut? As has been questioned before, what was the reason to recut a novodel's date BACK to a year where no business coins exist? Or - maybe there were very, very few business 5kop1781СПМ struck, some important collector got aware and wanted it? It could be an explantion for this strange novodel? This question would maybe best be posed in a Russian forum, where many experts participate. But my Russian is not sufficient. -Sigi- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I could ask on a couple of forums if you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I could ask on a couple of forums if you like. That would be great, Alex! Please do. Thank you, Sigi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Hi Steve, congrats! Gorny was right, it was Gorny 109 of April 2001. See scan below. I think the coin did not sell then, but will make sure. Good job Sigi! Same coin. Indeed, it did not sell in Gorny 109. From the images and the fact that it didn't sell after buyers got to see it first hand means I'd say altered date with 99.9% probability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Done. One of the experts on copper, said that there is something similar in the Smithsonian (not the same coin). In his opinion it (the Smithsonian coin) is an old antiquarian forgery. http://coins.su/foru...showtopic=98032 http://www.staraya-m...um1/topic34903/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 The question stands. Why a Novodel of 1781 CPM 5 Kop. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 I doubt that we'll learn the answer to that. It could be that there was an altered date coin that showed up in mid 1800's and made a splash on the numismatic scene. So someone ordered a bunch of Novodels made, later the coin was rejected and was not listed in Ilyin/Tolstoi catalogs. That's just a speculation of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted December 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Good job Sigi! Same coin. Indeed, it did not sell in Gorny 109. From the images and the fact that it didn't sell after buyers got to see it first hand means I'd say altered date with 99.9% probability. That was 11 years ago, the market was not yet as transparent (no internet viewing around the world). As the novodels were struck with altered dies (1781/?8), why not a previous business strike with altered dies? To make this broad 1 out of an 8 on the coin seems pretty difficult. Another question is Josh's: Why a 1781SPM novodel? Back dated from 1788. Out of the blue? Or to satisfy some important collectioner's wish, who had heard of a 5kop1781SPM? This is a fascinating thing. Let's see what the Russian forums have to say. Thank you, Steve, best, Sigi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Interesting. The Pansner Tables from 1833 show a 1781 CPM 5K, but it doesn't say if Pansner had seen an early novodel or something that looked original. Evidently, something existed at that time! Let's see if Schubert has anything to add... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Yes. Schubert (Page 211) lists it as 780.f, and cites the Schubert, Krug and Troszczinski collections as having one. May be the novodel, can't tell. BTW I have some very nice images of the Novodel. Clearly the last digit used to be an 8. Will try to post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 From the State Museum in Berlin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 What about Shoduar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted December 13, 2012 Report Share Posted December 13, 2012 Chaudoir (1837) #1728. Missing in Lyubomudrov (1897) Hmmm...Ilyin and Tolstoi (1910) list 1781 CPM 5K Novodel (5 Roubles) (Edge-0) 1781 CPM 5K Original (10 Roubles) (Edge-5) in the text, but show both as Novodels in the tables in the same book. Their 'original' symbol may be a typo as Novodels I've seen have edge 5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.