How would you price overstruck coins

[gxseries]

Normally when I buy coins, I would have a rough idea of the value of a coin and budget it accordingly. But when it comes down to overstruck coins in particular Russian coins, this has been very difficult.

 

In general, coin values are determined by the grade, color, wear, damage and so on. Overstruck coins are a different matter even though they might look ugly. All overstruck coins are unique, as all of them are overstruck at different angles, pressure, alignment of the coin. For instance, an overstruck 1730-1735 denga over a Peter I kopek and a 1724 kopek would be worth differently. But by how much? Would a high grade overstruck Peter I kopek be worth more than a low grade overstruck 1724 kopek? Not necessary.

 

You can have coins that were struck by a certain mint, transported over long distance to be overstruck in other mints. Planchets may not be of Russian origins such as the Swedish ore or the Sadagura coins.

 

The 1762 Peter III series are easily hundreds of dollars, in particular the 10 kopek - closer to the thousand dollar mark. How would you price them? Alex, I reckon you are one of better person to talk about this topic.

[bobh]

Normally when I buy coins, I would have a rough idea of the value of a coin and budget it accordingly. But when it comes down to overstruck coins in particular Russian coins, this has been very difficult.

 

In general, coin values are determined by the grade, color, wear, damage and so on. Overstruck coins are a different matter even though they might look ugly. All overstruck coins are unique, as all of them are overstruck at different angles, pressure, alignment of the coin. For instance, an overstruck 1730-1735 denga over a Peter I kopek and a 1724 kopek would be worth differently. But by how much? Would a high grade overstruck Peter I kopek be worth more than a low grade overstruck 1724 kopek? Not necessary.

 

You can have coins that were struck by a certain mint, transported over long distance to be overstruck in other mints. Planchets may not be of Russian origins such as the Swedish ore or the Sadagura coins.

 

The 1762 Peter III series are easily hundreds of dollars, in particular the 10 kopek - closer to the thousand dollar mark. How would you price them? Alex, I reckon you are one of better person to talk about this topic.

Very interesting topic, gxseries! I have often wondered about this myself.

 

The relative scarcity is certainly the most important factor. Collectors who collect overstrikes will probably not be too interested in finding uncirculated specimens (if there is such a phenomenon) but in finding coins with a high degree of visible detail. Coins that show lots of the undercoin are probably more desirable than those that don't (within the same series, that is). In the case of copper coins, corrosion can also be an important limiting factor.

 

Of course, an original coin of the undercoin type and the overstrike can be valued completely differently. For example, the 5 kopeck coins of Catherine II ... we can start with a common date and mint mark, then it is not expensive. When it got overstruck as a 10 kopeck cipher series, it immediately became very rare and quite expensive, even if it is in terrible shape (assuming that it survived the reign of Paul I without being overstruck again). But if it is overstruck again, it is only somewhat scarce if the date is 1793, for example, and rare if a different date ... but certainly not as rare as the cipher coin.

[gxseries]

Here's one super tough overstruck coin that I won a while ago. Still haven't got my hands on it since I'm probably 4 hours away from where it's located.

 

 

I'm sure you don't need to explain what the underlying image is. Igors has a superb example that he sent me a long time ago.

 

I thought I would have to fork out a lot more for this rarity but no, turned out to be as expensive as the 1731 denga over the 1724 kopek that I paid a long time ago.

 

This is still a simple example. You can have a double overstrike which is common for the 1757-1762 2 kopek over the 1755-1757 1 kopek over 1725-1730 5 kopek but you can have a triple overstrike which is what you call REALLY rare. Steve illustrated an example a while ago. I'm on the hunt. Don't quite remember which thread though...

 

Point is - prices are just whacked. Some people who do know what they are looking for can pay low price whereas sellers can just price them as ridiciously high as possible since they seem to be "unique". No standard market price as far as I try to establish.

[ScottO]

that is the problem, they exist, my only overstrikes are the 1758 2 kopeck and an italian 20 centisimos, both of which are common, the italian one depends on how much of the previous coin you can see, is it the same for russians?

[SOMMER]

hello everybody,it was a long time i came here.nice to come back

I totally agree with all these sentences.I own some overstruck coins, and I recently bought this one(2 kopecks 1757 overstruck on a baroque kopeck), but i paid it only 14 euros with the shipping(It ll arrive on the end of ths week , and i ll put other pictures ,particularly on omnicoin)

I didn t correctly evaluate its real price, when i search on internet, there was a lot of different prices.Icompare all prices on auctions and it s really difficukt to make a personnal idea

regards from france

jean

[alexbq2]

Well, I like the overstruck coins, but I think you Gxseries have a better eye for them. The question of price formation, whether it is coins or widgets requires analysis by a financial expert - which I am not.

 

The only thing I can say is that the general Russian coin collector is (these days) willing to pay great premiums for the coin's condition, and is often less motivated by the relative rarity. And, as always, catalogs have some sway with the collectors.

 

Overstruck coins tend to loose out in both of these categories. Usually they are a mess, and only Paul's overstrikes are listed in catalogs (and, as we know, those usually go for a lot more). There's definitely some demand for overstrikes - there's you, and I'm interested, and probably a few more people. But perhaps not enough to drive the price of every overstrike through the roof. Although, in a few cases I've noticed rigorous competition.

 

It is the same way with error coins. Look at the results of Kunker 178. Error coins (with an exception of one coin) did not get much attention from buyers.

 

Also, there is the lack of description on some items. Seller's sometimes either don't know or don't care enough to emphasize interesting overstrikes.

 

Look at this coin I got on eBay a bit over a year ago from Rarenum for only $25 (I was the only bidder!):

[gxseries]

This is a general list of copper overstruck coins and price which I think is around the current market price - price is in terms of low to high

 

1730-5 polushka over 1728-29 Moscow kopek: 30-50

1730-5 denga over general Peter I kopek: 30-50

1730-5 denga over 1724 kopek: 150+

1755-57 1 kopek over 1723-30 5 kopek: 250+

1757-62 1 kopek over Swedish ore: 200+

1757-62 2 kopek over 1755-57 Baroque kopek: 20-50

1757-62 2 kopek over 1755-57 Baroque kopek over previous 1723-30 5 kopek: 100+

1762 Peter III 2 kopek: 400

1762 Peter III 4 kopek: 400

1762 Peter III 10 kopek: 800+

Could be worth more if there are more layers being overstruck

1763-66 2 kopek over 1762 4 kopek: 20-40

1763-66 5 kopek over 1762 10 kopek: 50

1763 5 kopek CM over 1762 10 kopek: 150+

1767 5 kopek and other CM coins overstruck would be worth more

1796 4 kopek over 1763-90s 2 kopek: probably over 2000

1796 10 kopek over 1763-90s 5 kopek: probably over 2000

1793 2 kopek over 1796 4 kopek: 300+

1793 5 kopek over 1796 10 kopek: 80+

1795 MM 1 kopek over Sadagura para-3dengi: 300+

1795 MM 1 kopek over 1762 Peter III 2 kopek: 400+

1795 MM 2 kopek over Sadagura 2 para-3kopek: 300+

1795 MM 2 kopek over 1762 Peter III 4 kopek: 400+

1795 MM 5 kopek over 1762 Peter III 10 kopek: probably over 2000

 

Of course there are other rare overstrikes such as overstruck over rare patterns that are not included. I might have missed a couple of the more common types. Let me know if I do.

[BKB]

This would all depend on the condition. However, 1796 10 kop is safely over $10,000. All 1795 is off, if condition is f or higher. the 1793 would depend largely on the type (edge + mintmark for 2 kop) and condition. You also missed a lot of Paul's overstrikes. 1791,1793 no m/m, 1796, all AM's... 1762 10 kop is more money if struck on new planchette.

[alexbq2]

I'd like to point out that pretty much all 1730-4 polushkas and dengas are overstrikes, so there can not be any price premium based on the fact of overstriking, unless the overstrike is deemed esthetically pleasing or exceptional in some way (say over a 1724 kopeek).

 

Almost the same applies to 1757 2 kopeek coins, a great majority of these coins are overstrikes. Here a coin struck on a new planchette is harder to find and may be more expensive. For the overstrikes of that period the preservation of the rare original edge plays a large role.

[gxseries]

BKB and Alex thanks for pointing them out. My knowledge of Paul I overstrikes are poor and I should pick up a catalog for it. Also BKB, when you say the 1795 prices are off, what kind of range you are thinking of? I own both 1 and 2 kopek but at the same time they are very poor conditon and I probably paid rock bottom prices for them.

 

Also forgot to add - the 1724 kopek was overstruck over Peter I kopek and that's a really tough coin - last time saw it going over 4000 dollars.

[PeterShell]

How much can be 5 kopeken 1788 MM on 10 kopeken 1762 ?

[squirrel]

How much can be 5 kopeken 1788 MM on 10 kopeken 1762 ?

 

Like this one?

[nicholasz219]

Help me: what struck through features can you make out on the 1788/1762 pictured above? I can see outer rim detail on the reverse along the rim in the fields opposite the eagle. The obverse is tough for me and I think I am not sure what I am supposed to be seeing.

[PeterShell]

Like this one?

 

Yep,

Like this one ...

[squirrel]

Like this one?

 

The photo does not show nearly as much detai as can be seen in person.. my poor photo skills.

 

The coin is triple struck.

 

On the eagle side, you can clearly see the denomination banner of the Elizabeth 5K (1758-1762) to the left of the eagle, and at 2'oclock, is a wingtip.

 

On the date side, the digits "10" from the Peter III overstrike are at 9 oclock, under the 17, and the words Desyat and Kopeck are clearly seen, as is the date 1762. Look for the "2" inside the upper curl of the E cipher. You can also see some wreath from the Elizabeth strike, under and around the crown.

[PeterShell]

So... in generall .. what is the price for simple overstrike 5 k 1788mm on 10 k. 1762 ??

[squirrel]

So... in generall .. what is the price for simple overstrike 5 k 1788mm on 10 k. 1762 ??

 

mine is not for sale, so i cant tell you a price.

 

since it is not a rare date, price would depend on how pretty/ugly the overstrike is, I suppose, and how well preserved.

 

check recent auctions as usual. but there is no such thing as an overstriking grade, so that is the difficulty.

 

that is also the fun.

 

go buy stocks and bonds, or gold bars, if you only care about price.

[PeterShell]

mine is not for sale, so i cant tell you a price.

 

since it is not a rare date, price would depend on how pretty/ugly the overstrike is, I suppose, and how well preserved.

 

check recent auctions as usual. but there is no such thing as an overstriking grade, so that is the difficulty.

 

that is also the fun.

 

go buy stocks and bonds, or gold bars, if you only care about price.

So it looks that you missed the point... see the title of this post

But maybe that is the problem with squirrels..they care only about their own nuts ...

As you see there was a list with prices - I asked also about price because I don't collect this period

and overstrikes.. question was simple or maybe too complicated?

If you found time to show us your trash it would be nice also to answer what you were asked... otherwise you have waisted my time

and for sure I don't need to be advise by squirrels about the fact what I can or should buy

[gxseries]

So it looks that you missed the point... see the title of this post

But maybe that is the problem with squirrels..they care only about their own nuts ...

As you see there was a list with prices - I asked also about price because I don't collect this period

and overstrikes.. question was simple or maybe too complicated?

If you found time to show us your trash it would be nice also to answer what you were asked... otherwise you have waisted my time

and for sure I don't need to be advise by squirrels about the fact what I can or should buy

 

squirrel's got a point and I don't appreciate it when you say other people is wasting your time. Because now I have to type in exactly the same thing to say this is a waste of MY time. So now you are saying he's got time to show his trash and what you are asking is not trash? Maybe giving a couple of seconds to think about what you wrote will help with this "wasting time" business.

 

Just in case you don't get what squirrel is saying, price is highly dependent on the grade and how clear the overstrike is. If you refuse to specify the details of what you are looking at, you aren't getting any reliable figures. Actually even giving a figure will be a waste of MY time.

 

Other people are here to share their passion and knowledge during their free time. If you dare to ever mention about others wasting your time, I suggest you should start looking for consultants and don't bother coming back.

[bobh]

Other people are here to share their passion and knowledge during their free time. If you dare to ever mention about others wasting your time, I suggest you should start looking for consultants and don't bother coming back.

[PeterShell]

Strange reaction especially that someone was trying to offend me. and you GX made a whole list with prices

I didn't know that simple question about price of this particular coin will create such problem especially that whole list with prices was in previous post.

I don't force anyone to buy or not buy some golden bars or anything - so I'm expecting same treatment..

I wasn't asking about price of squirrel coin - so the whole part "of beeing so smart guy with that coin" was a waste of time...

I asked -as lot of other people here - about price in general because I don't have this particular knowledge.

The answer of Mr. Squirrel was rude - and that is all.

and at last and not at least - don't teach me about passions I share because you don't have enough knowledge.

[squirrel]

Strange reaction especially that someone was trying to offend me. and you GX made a whole list with prices

I didn't know that simple question about price of this particular coin will create such problem especially that whole list with prices was in previous post.

I don't force anyone to buy or not buy some golden bars or anything - so I'm expecting same treatment..

I wasn't asking about price of squirrel coin - so the whole part "of beeing so smart guy with that coin" was a waste of time...

I asked -as lot of other people here - about price in general because I don't have this particular knowledge.

The answer of Mr. Squirrel was rude - and that is all.

and at last and not at least - don't teach me about passions I share because you don't have enough knowledge.

 

 

You missed my point entirely.

 

This relates directly to the topic of this thread:

Some overstruck coins are RARE, thus command high prices. (see GX summary list above for example)

Some overstruck coins are COMMON, and can be had for a price that is great for starting collectors.

 

If a coin is overstruck, this does not of itself set the price.

 

BUT comparing two examples of the same overstruck date/mm, IN GENERAL the one with better detail from the older coin is more desireable for the collector, and therefore a higher price.

 

 

[gxseries]

You are not getting the point. This is a public forum, not your personal private forum. Just because you are not getting your answer does not mean that you look down on other collectors who do not share your interests. Being offensive against a possibly rude comment will not make the situation any better. If you wish to keep up with your current altitude, I deem it as unhelpful to this forum and other moderators or I will have to take further actions.

[PeterShell]

Ok.. Let's stop this - no use to argue

Thank you for the explanation - allthough this knowledge I had allready

Just.. still don't know what is the price for this particular type in average VF condition

but it can wait - as this is not my period to collect ...

Sguirrel -sorry

[BKB]

Easy now where is the New Year's spirit? Everyone is a bit stressed out, no need to celebrate it in public.

 

As to the coin, it is impossible to price a coin without seeing it. Unless it is an American coin, which was accurately graded. What may be a vf to you, in reality, may be thought of as F by the majority. Thus, show the photo and get your answer.