STEVE MOULDING Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 I'm sure some native Russian speakers can help us here. (or I hope so) Looks like the Grade Duke corpus will be one of the first few books I MUST buy although I have no idea where I can get one other than auction houses. I believe a further understanding of the Sestroretsk mint's operations may help to give another insight that we could have missed. Often dreamt about having a translated Corpus. Perhaps we could organize a collective translation project..."An Ukaz a Day Keeps the Doctor Away". It would be more fun than reading about eBay fakes! That would be of even larger scope than my ongoing multi-year auction archive project Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to help much. However...there was a French translation published many years ago (I don't have it). My French is much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Yes. The Grand Duke corpus. My set is in 11 very heavy hard-back large-format (35cmx25cm) volumes. Around $800, 3 years ago. There may be cheaper editions around somewhere. Alex Basok has it on sale at his website on two CD's for about $75, IIRC ... I assume it is legal? Unfortunately, it is also Russian only. Considering how difficult it is to even FIND the paper reprints, much less buy them (they certainly haven't gotten any cheaper), and knowing his good reputation, I had no qualms about buying it. But, like most other CD catalogs, it is difficult to navigate. However, the CD edition offered by him also contains the previously unpublished plates of Peter I coinage, so there is some added value ... copyright issues can probably be put aside considering that anything published in Russia at that time was not copyrighted anywhere else in the world ... ... look at what Stravinsky went through trying to collect any money at all for things like the "Firebird" suite which was written around 1910. Stravinsky did a lot of arrangements of his earlier music (songs, for example) and published them in the 1950's and 1960's so that he could at least collect royalties on the arrangements![/OT] I didn't get through the entire text yet, but something in the title caught my eye: "Об определении чинов и служителей ко внов открываемому переделу медной монеты на Сестроретских заводах" (emphasis mine). He is referring to the "factories" at Sestroretsk, in the plural. My rough translation of the title: "Concerning the appointments of offices and duties for the renewed making [manufacturing?] of copper coins at the Sestroretsk factories". I wonder how many mints (or factories) there were at Sestroretsk? Glancing through the article, it doesn't seem to go into any technicalities concerning the actual striking of the coins, but is more concerned with which persons [mostly army officers?] are in charge of the various departments. Of course, I'm not a native speaker, so I might have missed something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Nice Bob! I feel like we're peeking into some treasure chest and are getting hints of the shiny gold inside. Or should I say shiny copper. . Even if it's about appointments etc. we're still learning something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Now we are definately going somewhere. What's the point of having archival materials if it's just sitting down and collecting dust? Reckon we can make a wikipedia version of the Corpus (otherwise it's just a corpse) and keep track of what is going on. Probably need a custom made database for so much data P.S. does anyone know where the Sestroretsk mint is on Google earth? Tried to look it up but I have no clue - Russia should just spend a bit more money on tourism I would visit there some day if it's open to the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 http://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF8&oe...&iwloc=addr That's the town, at least. Now where's the mint? Also... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sestroretsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Bingo - found something http://www.toolfactory.ru/ History section may be worth reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 http://sestrariver.ru/pics/map.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Alex Basok has it on sale at his website on two CD's for about $75, IIRC ... I assume it is legal? Unfortunately, it is also Russian only. Considering how difficult it is to even FIND the paper reprints, much less buy them (they certainly haven't gotten any cheaper), and knowing his good reputation, I had no qualms about buying it. But, like most other CD catalogs, it is difficult to navigate. However, the CD edition offered by him also contains the previously unpublished plates of Peter I coinage, so there is some added value ... copyright issues can probably be put aside considering that anything published in Russia at that time was not copyrighted anywhere else in the world ... It is my understanding that anything published prior to 1924 is now in the public domain. There were international copyright agreements in force prior to WW I but whether these included Russia I cannot say. The CDs sold by Alex Basok are perfectly legal and do contain all of the documents not found in the French translation of 1916. The Corpus plates for 1711–1719 are interesting in that the Hermitage gave a set of these to the Smithsonian when the Stefanellis were there. When I was in St. Petersburg in 1992 some of the 1711–1719 plates could actually be found in second-hand stores though it would have been very dangerous to try and take them out. I know of one person who successfully did so, however. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 They have a website! http://www.toolfactory.ru/index.html http://www.toolfactory.ru/history.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 from the history link above... "1755 Empress Elizabeth, the daughter of Peter the Great, establishes a mint at the factory. Old coins are recast." interesting in that the term recast is used, not restruck. I wonder if it could be that was true, and that (some portion ) of 1762 10 kopeks were melted down at Sestroretsk, providing the copper for the new planchets used to strike the later CM coins. Just a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 I didn't get through the entire text yet, but something in the title caught my eye:"Об определении чинов и служителей ко внов открываемому переделу медной монеты на Сестроретских заводах" (emphasis mine). He is referring to the "factories" at Sestroretsk, in the plural. My rough translation of the title: "Concerning the appointments of offices and duties for the renewed making [manufacturing?] of copper coins at the Sestroretsk factories". I wonder how many mints (or factories) there were at Sestroretsk? I would translate as "Concerning the ranks and officers of the newly opening (or reopening) remake of copper coin on the Sestroresk Factories" I think it is very possible that at Sestroretsk the old coin was both overstruck and melted. Just like the CPB this mint was (imho) involved purely in the remaking of the lightweight coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 There is some very puzzling things that is coming out of this, assuming if the historical documentation by the company is as accurate as it can be. In 1755, you have this new mint being set up in Sestroretsk which was only founded 50 odd years ago after the war with Sweden. Yes, good reason why they would have a huge stock of cannon metals. This site might be another division of the company: http://www.sestroretsk-factory.ru/history.html You had Peter the Great visiting the place itself and it seems there might have been huge plans of making it a big thing. There is one thing though, is the word recast as accurately translated from Russian to English? Or even accurate in the original version - you'll never know what non-numismatic people writing articles can accurately describe what was going on. If you remember the time 1755, that was when you had the massive overstriking of the Baroque kopek and then another massive overstrike program in 1757. Oddly, I thought Sestroretsk mint only started in 1757. Put that aside, the mint got into an unfortunate event of flooding in 1756 and it took them 5 years to deal with it. Was this why there were no mintmarks for their coins? It must mean that if there was a way of identifying the difference between St. Petersburg and Sestroretsk, CM coins must be quite scarce. And finally, what bothered me is line "the mint moved to St. Petersburg in 1766". Then why do you have CM coins dated 1767? How would it explain that there were dies imported from St. Petersburg? Doomed from the beginning? Or did the dies travel from CM to CPM. (unlikely) Quite interesting and actually very nice of them to create a website, otherwise such valuable information will not be known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Alex, point taken. My point is, there is a strong belief that all the later years of the CM 5 kopeks are likely to be struck on fresh planchets and my purpose here is to debunk the mystery. Alex, if it is possible for you to take photos of your coin (I know I am asking a difficult task to you), can you post a photo of what you got there? I might be able to see if something is there, otherwise I will pass. Here it is. But I must point out that the diameter and the thickness of my coin do not suggest an overstrike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Alex, there is a lot of explanation needed of why the coin is of such bizarre feature. Usually though, the good thing about such crude striking is that they got more features to show for example if you look at the year "66", in the middle or towards the top left side of the first six. If that doesn't look like a star to you, I'm not too sure how else to describe the shape. I still can't figure out the exact orientation but with more photos, it might reveal more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Definitely a star Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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