lennysky Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Respectfully, please advise whether or not it is unusual to have a 1767 CPM 5 Kopecks overstruck over a 1762 10 Kopek piece. I've seen many other years, but do to relative scarcity/rarity of the 1767 CPM 5 Kopeks am unaware if this specific mintmark is associated with the overstriking program. Thank you for your responses on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Respectfully, please advise whether or not it is unusual to have a 1767 CPM 5 Kopecks overstruck over a 1762 10 Kopek piece. I've seen many other years, but do to relative scarcity/rarity of the 1767 CPM 5 Kopeks am unaware if this specific mintmark is associated with the overstriking program. Thank you for your responses on this issue. I think that if not all then most of the CPM coins were a result of the copper reform rollback. At the present time, it appears, that each overstruck coin is evaluated on its own merits and is subject to personal aesthetic appreciation. In my opinion the more of the undercoin you get to see the more interesting that piece is. But they are not (yet) in the category of Paul's overstrikes and do not fetch as high a price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted March 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 I think that if not all then most of the CPM coins were a result of the copper reform rollback. At the present time, it appears, that each overstruck coin is evaluated on its own merits and is subject to personal aesthetic appreciation. In my opinion the more of the undercoin you get to see the more interesting that piece is. But they are not (yet) in the category of Paul's overstrikes and do not fetch as high a price. Thank you for the response. It is my understanding that the 1767 CPM is rather rare and is by far more scarce than the 1793 EM Paul's overstrike. Perhaps as rare as the 1791. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Thank you for the response. It is my understanding that the 1767 CPM is rather rare and is by far more scarce than the 1793 EM Paul's overstrike. Perhaps as rare as the 1791. Well, I'm not going to disagree with you as far as the 1793 EM Paul's overstrike goes. I would not consider either all that scarce. What makes Paul's overstrike special is that it is easy to distinguish these coins even when the undercoin is not visible, and there are mintage records for Paul's overstrike (as far as I recall). I may be wrong but I would say that EM 1760's overstrikes are harder to find than CPM, and CM overstrikes are rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Let's say it's uncommon although it's not unusual or rare. Steve should have a list up somewhere although I am not too sure if he has documented 5 kopeks yet. So far, most overstruck coins aren't of much value unless the underlying coin is a rare design, pattern or variant or it just happens to be relatively clear. Exception is if you can find an overstruck CM 5 kopek, you've hit the jackpot. It's a mystery at the moment. That said, it's not strange to see your type of overstruck 5 kopeks going at around 40-50usd these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted March 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Let's say it's uncommon although it's not unusual or rare. Steve should have a list up somewhere although I am not too sure if he has documented 5 kopeks yet. So far, most overstruck coins aren't of much value unless the underlying coin is a rare design, pattern or variant or it just happens to be relatively clear. Exception is if you can find an overstruck CM 5 kopek, you've hit the jackpot. It's a mystery at the moment. That said, it's not strange to see your type of overstruck 5 kopeks going at around 40-50usd these days. If you can find me 1767 CPM 5 Kopek coins at 50USD, I will buy all of them. 1767 CPM, and I am sure Steve would agree with me is the most difficult to find of the series. If I recall, I spent over $200USD for mine. I will post a photo shortly. I am still after the elusive 1767CM 5 Kopeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Let's say it's uncommon although it's not unusual or rare. Steve should have a list up somewhere although I am not too sure if he has documented 5 kopeks yet. So far, most overstruck coins aren't of much value unless the underlying coin is a rare design, pattern or variant or it just happens to be relatively clear. Exception is if you can find an overstruck CM 5 kopek, you've hit the jackpot. It's a mystery at the moment. That said, it's not strange to see your type of overstruck 5 kopeks going at around 40-50usd these days. Should be a bit more than $50 :-) I would not be surprise if a very nice vf/xf coin (not corroded) brought over $1000 at auction nowdays. However, it may still be possible to find a corpse of a 1767 CPM for $50, although, I do not know where to look... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Let's say it's uncommon although it's not unusual or rare. Steve should have a list up somewhere although I am not too sure if he has documented 5 kopeks yet. There you go: http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/Fr...ossible-III.pdf Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 There you go: http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/Fr...ossible-III.pdf Steve This was the draft of Part III from JRNS Winter 2005. We're already up to Part VII published recently. 1. Paul I (1797-1801) Copper Coins JRNS 79 (Winter 2004/05) 2. Catherine II (1762-1796) 2 Kopeks JRNS 80 (Summer 2005) 3. Catherine II 5 Kopeks JRNS 81 (Winter 2005/06) 4. Catherine II 1 Kopek JRNS 82 (Summer 2006) 5. Catherine II Denga JRNS 84 (Summer 2007) 6. Catherine II Polushka JRNS 84 (Summer 2007) 7. Peter III Copper Coins JRNS 85 (Winter 2007) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted March 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Here are the scans. A bit of corrosion but overall a very pleasant coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Most difficult to find year for this mintmark.. nice find! Some 1762 detail to be seen on both sides. Very collectible! congrats! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted March 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Most difficult to find year for this mintmark.. nice find!Some 1762 detail to be seen on both sides. Very collectible! congrats! Thank you! Details are well defined for the 1762 10 Kop Piece. Too bad for some of this pesky corrosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Nice example definitely I think I didn't phrase my original wording right when I put in the value; it should be at least at the lower end for that series. Should have more coffee next time I reply here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 There you go: http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/Fr...ossible-III.pdf Steve Interesting article. Very surprising findings! Most surprising (imho) is that you've found so many 1787 TMs! What were your sources? (I may have missed that part at my first perusal) I am concerned that if you concentrate your attention on examining major auctions, you will not get a true sampling, as these auctions attempt to present more uncommon coins to the buyers, thus creating a bias in your statistics. As for the coin in question, I only had Rylov and Soblin at my side yesterday, and that catalog does not heavily differentiate 1767 from previous CPM years, so I thought the discussion was more on relative value of the overstruck 1762 10 kopeeks, which I steel feel are undervalued compared to Paul's overstrikes. Here's what I saw the other day on the Gorny&Mosch results: http://www.gmcoinart.de/shop/inhalt.php3?A...773&von=396 For some reason my browser can't load all the coins on that page, but I see 1763 and 1765 CPM (more common than 1767), and the realized prices are not spectacular. Personally, I liked that 1763 more than their 1765. This link may be interesting: http://tsovin.ru/coins/?nom=5+%EA%EE%EF%E5...=2008&auc=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Interesting article. Very surprising findings! Most surprising (imho) is that you've found so many 1787 TMs! What were your sources? (I may have missed that part at my first perusal) I am concerned that if you concentrate your attention on examining major auctions, you will not get a true sampling, as these auctions attempt to present more uncommon coins to the buyers, thus creating a bias in your statistics. You bring up a good point. The bias is a known problem and is discussed in some of the earlier articles. It's also discussed explicitly in this article in the case of the 1787 and 1788 TM's (see the conclusion section). Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted March 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Many rare coins are at times bought here and there. Recently i bought a 1788 TM for $125 (not too bad of a shape) and consider myself lucky, as I feel with buying my 1767 CPM. Wish I can find 1767MM and CM as reasonable as my previous finds:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Many rare coins are at times bought here and there. Recently i bought a 1788 TM for $125 (not too bad of a shape) and consider myself lucky, as I feel with buying my 1767 CPM. Wish I can find 1767MM and CM as reasonable as my previous finds:) You got an 1788 TM just for $125!!! Wow, congrats!!! I was offered one only once in like 1994 for $100, that was a lot for me at the time. I've always thought they were uber-expensive, you've got a great bargain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 You bring up a good point. The bias is a known problem and is discussed in some of the earlier articles. It's also discussed explicitly in this article in the case of the 1787 and 1788 TM's (see the conclusion section). Steve Sorry, I was distracted by charts and flashy graphics So you have a huge DB with pictures?! It would also be very interesting to subcategories further - e.g. by eagle types, overdates, overstrikes. That's a big job, though. If you need volunteers, I could chip in a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Recently i bought a 1788 TM for $125 Can you post pictures of it, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted March 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 You mean of 1788TM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted March 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 I purchased it from a dealer about 1.5 years ago. From his web page to be exact. Steve Moulding may remember it as I showed it to him. During one of the Brooklyn Coin Club meetings. The dealer, was sorry he sold it as soon as I bought it, but could not back out of the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Sorry, I was distracted by charts and flashy graphics So you have a huge DB with pictures?! It would also be very interesting to subcategories further - e.g. by eagle types, overdates, overstrikes. That's a big job, though. If you need volunteers, I could chip in a bit. Many thanks Yes the database is _huge_ and I don't think I'll ever be able to get all the images I have into it. They come in faster than I can keep up. gxseries and squirrel have both done a really great job helping with cutting and pasting catalog images for the database in general. Eagle type and other studies...if anyone is interested in doing a particular study drop me an email and I can get the relevant part of the database to you. I've done this in the past for one of our board-mates who was doing a 5K study. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennysky Posted March 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Can you post pictures of it, please? Here are the scans of the 1788TM 5 Kopeks. Too bad for mechanical damage on both sides, but for $125 I was not about to complain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Wasn't that TM 5 kopek on sale at mycoindealer.com at one stage? Doesn't matter - still a good bargain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Here are the scans of the 1788TM 5 Kopeks. Too bad for mechanical damage on both sides, but for $125 I was not about to complain Thank you for the pictures. When I saw the price of $125, the first thing I thought was "Is it real?". Well, it sure looks real to me (although I'm hardly as well versed in copper coins as others here are). Congratulations on your good fortune! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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