Help needed! Nicholas I 1839. Borodino Commemorative Rouble

[Ippocampos]

Good evening Gentlemen!

 

We have often criticised forgers, fake - sellers and the like but I find myself being accused of one and want some opinions on my coin as I am no intentional fake seller.

 

I bought this coin about 7 years ago from a reputable dealer in London (belonging to a reeputable auciton house) and have had to for the usual reasons ($$$) sell it which I did at the end of last month on ebay (stupid of course but makes a quicker revenue generation than auction houses). I guaranteed authenticity as this was my belief and it looked fine to me apart from 2 teeth marks on the rim (something I have seen on a similar coin from another auction but open to anyones thoughts on that).. however this to me hurt quality but not authenticity.

 

Ebay link : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=260186670745

 

Item no: 260186670745 - on ended items.

 

The buyer after 1 month tells me its a fake

 

quote"

In comparison with the certificated coin =ANACS =

1. Difference in the text of an inscription from edge.

2. Difference in an ornament on edge of a coin.

3. Difference in hairdresses, curls of hair.

4. Difference in a laurel branch around of a sword.

5. Other fine differences look and you will see them.

"unquote

 

Although I am threatened with negative feedback and certain death unless I do not restitute the money (something I have happily accepted as being a collector I abhor swindlers and above all want someone to be happy with the coin that made me happy) I have asked to have my coin back first and same day received I will restitute.

 

1) Is this fair?

2) Most importantly what is the panels verdict of the coin? As soon as I get it back I will post pictures as I would like a more objective opinion if it is indeed suspect as I can further this with this reputable auction house with no name...

 

Very grateful for your thoughts.

[RW Julian]

Good evening Gentlemen!

We have often criticised forgers, fake - sellers and the like but I find myself being accused of one and want some opinions on my coin as I am no intentional fake seller.

I bought this coin about 7 years ago from a reputable dealer in London (belonging to a reeputable auciton house) and have had to for the usual reasons ($$$) sell it which I did at the end of last month on ebay (stupid of course but makes a quicker revenue generation than auction houses). I guaranteed authenticity as this was my belief and it looked fine to me apart from 2 teeth marks on the rim (something I have seen on a similar coin from another auction but open to anyones thoughts on that).. however this to me hurt quality but not authenticity.

Ebay link : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=260186670745

Item no: 260186670745 - on ended items.

The buyer after 1 month tells me its a fake

quote"

In comparison with the certificated coin =ANACS =

1. Difference in the text of an inscription from edge. 2. Difference in an ornament on edge of a coin.

3. Difference in hairdresses, curls of hair. 4. Difference in a laurel branch around of a sword.

5. Other fine differences look and you will see them. "unquote

Although I am threatened with negative feedback and certain death unless I do not restitute the money (something I have happily accepted as being a collector I abhor swindlers and above all want someone to be happy with the coin that made me happy) I have asked to have my coin back first and same day received I will restitute.

1) Is this fair?

2) Most importantly what is the panels verdict of the coin? As soon as I get it back I will post pictures as I would like a more objective opinion if it is indeed suspect as I can further this with this reputable auction house with no name...

Very grateful for your thoughts.

The problem with the 1839 Borodino rouble is that there are quite a few different obverse and reverse

dies, each differing slightly. I have compared the photos to pieces in my data bank and I cannot see

any difference in the style of lettering. The eBay photos, however, are a trifle soft and exact comparison

is difficult. On the whole it looks genuine but this is just an opinion.

 

RWJ

[Ippocampos]

RWJ Thanks (of course its an opinion).

Grivna you are a wise man.

[grivna1726]

The buyer after 1 month tells me its a fake...

 

I don't know if it is a fake or not and would like to see higher resolution photos of the edge (if that is possible).

 

I suggest that if the buyer thinks it is a fake, then the best thing to do is accept the return and refund the buyer's money (even if the coin is proven genuine).

 

If you don't, the buyer will decide you are a crook and will likely say that to everyone he knows.

 

If the coin is bad, you will have done the right thing and will need to go back to the dealer from whom you purchased the coin.

 

If it is genuine, you probably won't have any trouble finding another buyer in today's market.

 

It is a nuisance and means you will not see the money as quickly, but you might end up getting more for the coin in the end.

[Timofei]

Picture is bad but coins looks ok to me.

 

Once I had the same case - a buyer purchased 1839 conmem.rouble but "found out" something "wrong with letters". I was on a business trip and I offered the customer to address to GIM museum for the certification at my cost (in case of a fake) while I was away from Moscow. I was 100% certain about the coin and it turned out that it was 100% original. When I returned and met the buyer he apologized for this doubts and asked me to resell the coin for him somewhere else because he neede the money urgently. A nice coin took 5 days to be sold to another collector. I understood it was the main reason for the buyer to return the coin. The main idea is to be cooperative

[STEVE MOULDING]

Sorry to see he hit you with a negative feedback today

 

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...erid=ippocampos

[Ippocampos]

Sorry to see he hit you with a negative feedback today

 

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...erid=ippocampos

 

Indeed I am sorry but the guy is crazy... I said to him, as was advised on this thread and as my conscience dictated, that if he is not happy I will refund regardless (even after 1 month) but that I must have the coin returned first (how do I know what might have been done to it or not and who this guy is ??) as the guy was aggressive from the start.. he said refund me right now or else i will post negative feedback etc.. so again I said refund fine with me just return my coin... then i get all these messages if you want war you will get war! and let me keep the coin its only worth 100 $ etc... i would beware of this guy, as I never disagreed to his requests as I can claim myself from the auction house if it is fake or else sell on.. (although i get my bonus in 3 weeks ::))) so perhaps no need!

 

Thanks for your advice, if I do get the coin back then I will post better scans...

[gxseries]

You can forward this link to the buyer. I'm just seeing this as he wanted a free steal from the buyer's side. Since he is in Russia, he can send the coin to GIM and ask for their opinions. He didn't.

 

Next time when I am selling some of my rarer Russian coins, I think I should just avoid selling to Russia - once they get shipped in, how on earth does the buyer sends it out of the country supposely if he dares to claim counterfeit as an excuse.

[alexbq2]

You can forward this link to the buyer. I'm just seeing this as he wanted a free steal from the buyer's side. Since he is in Russia, he can send the coin to GIM and ask for their opinions. He didn't.

 

Next time when I am selling some of my rarer Russian coins, I think I should just avoid selling to Russia - once they get shipped in, how on earth does the buyer sends it out of the country supposely if he dares to claim counterfeit as an excuse.

 

 

That's how I won my 1802 10 kop last summer!

 

The seller did not want to deal with a Russian buyer who outbid me.

[grivna1726]

I'm just seeing this as he wanted a free steal from the buyer's side.

 

gx, the same thought occurred to me.

 

Ippocampos, if you respond to the negative feedback, I recommend that you include a link to this thread in your response.

[Timofei]

let me keep the coin its only worth 100 $

 

This seems the main reason for the whole fight. He wants a free coin.

[Ippocampos]

Thanks for your advice. Thread posted and have also alerted buyer to this thread here. He is more than welcome to return the coin (my father lives in russia he can give it there too...unless he really deems it a fake and can send it out as a counterfeit, I spent over 100 usd to send it to him by courrier) and then he will promptly be refunded.

[Ippocampos]

Have directed buyer to this thread and received a softer approach not threatening to tear my head off anymore... However still insists to give his money back first. I have explained that I will not do this particularly after his aggressive stance has not filled me with much trust. Is this unreasonable? I have also told him if he does not send it he can drop it off in either Moscow or St. Petersburg. What should I do? Anyone know this buyer okcoin27?

[grivna1726]

Have directed buyer to this thread and received a softer approach not threatening to tear my head off anymore... However still insists to give his money back first. I have explained that I will not do this particularly after his aggressive stance has not filled me with much trust. Is this unreasonable? I have also told him if he does not send it he can drop it off in either Moscow or St. Petersburg. What should I do? Anyone know this buyer okcoin27?

 

I don't know him & I don't want to know him.

 

There is absolutely no way that I would refund his money without getting the coin back first.

 

Do you know of any stores that will refund your money BEFORE you return allegedly defective goods? I don't.

[Ippocampos]

Thanks Grivna, its good to share my concerns online in this forum to avoid more costly mistakes...

[Maya]

Hi Konstantinos,

 

I think that you have done everything you reasonably could in regards to this unfortunate buyer. Under no circumstances would I refund his money without receiving my coin back and making sure it's the same coin I sold him in the first place.

 

If he truly believes that the coin is a fake, he should have no problem returning it. Why keep a piece of junk? You certainly made it as easy for him as possible by allowing him to return it in Russia and not having to worry about customs and legalities.

 

Good luck. I sicerely hope that everything works out well.

[WCO]

I am not completely sure that this story is as explained by one side (ippocampus). I'd rather hear the opponent too. It is not possible for him to bring coin to Russian State Historical Museum (GIM) in Moscow for authentication as someone suggested. It is not possible to send it to GIM by mail, this is the best way to lose something valuable in Russia, just send it to a big organization by mail and it will never be found. It is not also possible to the buyer to "...drop it off in either Moscow or St. Petersburg" as suggested by ippocampus. Ippocampus, do you have his address where you sent the coin? Am I right that he is in Komsomolsk-on-Amur? Do you know how far this city is from Moscow or St-Petersburg? ... And I do believe there is a chance that the coin may be a fake. So not all that easy. I am also wondering, what amount was offered as refund? Was it fair? I do not think buyer wants to get a free coin, it is not like that. May be he is afraid to send the coin and get nothing at all in return?

 

------------

 

This thread also raises some questions. Let's say you on e-bay purchased $500 coin which looked completely genuine on the pictures. Paid $500 +$15 for shipping. After receiving a coin sent it to a grading service and it turned out to be a fake. The cost of sending back and forth and authenticating was $70. Then return postage to the seller another $15. Seller was OK to refund hammer price of $500. You lose time and $100. Question. Is it fair that seller offered you refund of the purchase price and did not offer to pay back $100 in related expenses? Is it fair when seller saying "I did not ask you to pay to any grading service for authentication of this coin, you did it at your own free will so I do not refund this amount but only hummer price of the coin"? Any thoughts? Should the buyer after receiving refund post a negative feedback to such a seller? Deserve such a seller negative feedback just because he did not do his own home work, he supposed to make sure the coin is authentic and he did not care?

 

WCO

[WCO]

... its good to share my concerns online in this forum to avoid more costly mistakes...

 

 

Here is I think a good advice. Always promptly authenticate your coins before selling. Then you will avoid "... more costly mistakes".

 

WCO

[grivna1726]

Under no circumstances would I refund his money without receiving my coin back and making sure it's the same coin I sold him in the first place.

 

Maya makes a good point.

 

In this particular case, a switched coin would probably be very easy to spot due to the distinctive characteristics of this particular example.

 

As a collector, I have always understood (even if it is not explicitly stated) that I should never remove a coin from a dealer's holder unless I am certain that I am going to keep it. Some dealers might be willing to allow that for established clients, but even in that case, it would be best to obtain the dealer's permission first.

[Marina]

I am not completely sure that this story is as explained by one side (ippocampus). I'd rather hear the opponent too. It is not possible for him to bring coin to Russian State Historical Museum (GIM) in Moscow for authentication as someone suggested. It is not possible to send it to GIM by mail, this is the best way to lose something valuable in Russia, just send it to a big organization by mail and it will never be found. It is not also possible to the buyer to "...drop it off in either Moscow or St. Petersburg" as suggested by ippocampus. Ippocampus, do you have his address where you sent the coin? Am I right that he is in Komsomolsk-on-Amur? Do you know how far this city is from Moscow or St-Petersburg? ... And I do believe there is a chance that the coin may be a fake. So not all that easy. I am also wondering, what amount was offered as refund? Was it fair? I do not think buyer wants to get a free coin, it is not like that. May be he is afraid to send the coin and get nothing at all in return?

 

------------

 

This thread also raises some questions. Let's say you on e-bay purchased $500 coin which looked completely genuine on the pictures. Paid $500 +$15 for shipping. After receiving a coin sent it to a grading service and it turned out to be a fake. The cost of sending back and forth and authenticating was $70. Then return postage to the seller another $15. Seller was OK to refund hammer price of $500. You lose time and $100. Question. Is it fair that seller offered you refund of the purchase price and did not offer to pay back $100 in related expenses? Is it fair when seller saying "I did not ask you to pay to any grading service for authentication of this coin, you did it at your own free will so I do not refund this amount but only hummer price of the coin"? Any thoughts? Should the buyer after receiving refund post a negative feedback to such a seller? Deserve such a seller negative feedback just because he did not do his own home work, he supposed to make sure the coin is authentic and he did not care?

 

WCO

 

 

I see here a point.

Again and again Better to buy this kind of coins slabed. That way you can skip all this trouble. And even if its cleaned and slabbed by NGS its still genuine. Its ridiculously to buy such expensive coin with closed eyes.

Seller must insure his own opinion by one of the third party graded company, to avoid this situation.

[And986]

This coin is a fake. It is relatively easy to compare this picture with the well known line of minted fakes. It is identical. The fake of this quality worth about $100 in my opinion.

 

Person is Russia is obviously very limited in his/her actions. It can't be send back. If he/her sends it from Siberia to your parents and it's disappears, you will not refund? Put yourself in his shoes...

 

Personally, I DO NOT sell to Russia anymore exactly for that reason. In this case i would return the money minus $100 and let him/her to keep it.

 

What do you need this souvenir for, Ippocampos, anyway? You made a mistake twice selling a fake and selling it to Russia. It can not be returned reasonably safely.

 

If you are so concerned about honesty - return the money and ask him/her to withdraw the negative feedback.

[Loyal Citizen]

Have directed buyer to this thread and received a softer approach not threatening to tear my head off anymore... However still insists to give his money back first. I have explained that I will not do this particularly after his aggressive stance has not filled me with much trust. Is this unreasonable? I have also told him if he does not send it he can drop it off in either Moscow or St. Petersburg. What should I do? Anyone know this buyer okcoin27?

 

I dealt with this Buyer before and had no problem. The guy is very straight forward and honest.

[RW Julian]

This coin is a fake. It is relatively easy to compare this picture with the well known line of minted fakes. It is identical. The fake of this quality worth about $100 in my opinion.

I looked at the photos and did not see any obvious signs of being counterfeit. Please

explain why it is a fake.

 

RWJ

[And986]

First of all - I bought exactly the same one a few years ago myself. It is in my aquarium now with the fishes. Pure silver. Here the link how it looked like: http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/analisis.cgi?view=coins

 

If you visit some russian forums and search for it - there is plenty of examples. Just compare the detailes.

 

And the buyer is right, if you look at the certified coin - no further questions needed. I have one.

[Marina]

First of all - I bought exactly the same one a few years ago myself. It is in my aquarium now with the fishes. Pure silver. Here the link how it looked like: http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/analisis.cgi?view=coins

 

If you visit some russian forums and search for it - there is plenty of examples. Just compare the detailes.

 

And the buyer is right, if you look at the certified coin - no further questions needed. I have one.

 

Still did not get it why people so risky and pays HIGH amounts for coins that very hard to authenticated even if in the hands... Not smart moves...

Want make sure (at least 95% if no more) that coins is genuine BUY IT SLABBED or with Suuuuuuper garantees that its genuine and not just buyers opinions...