WCO Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 I dealt with this Buyer before and had no problem. The guy is very straight forward and honest. Same here. Can say only good things about the buyer. I think he is just extremely upset to lose significant amount of money, and who would not be? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 First of all - I bought exactly the same one a few years ago myself. It is in my aquarium now with the fishes. Pure silver. Here the link how it looked like: http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/analisis.cgi?view=coins I checked the coin on this site. NOT the same pair of dies as the ippocampus piece. In an earlier post I noted that the ippocampus coin may be genuine but that I could not be certain. I see nothing so far that changes this view. One problem is that the ippocampus photos are somewhat 'soft' and therefore an exact determination is difficult. Moreover, the 1839 Borodino coins were struck from a considerable number of die pairs, all of which are slightly different. There was no master hub for dies at St. Petersburg prior to 1844. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 I checked the coin on this site. NOT the same pair of dies as the ippocampus piece. In an earlier post I noted that the ippocampus coin may be genuine but that I could not be certain. I see nothing so far that changes this view. One problem is that the ippocampus photos are somewhat 'soft' and therefore an exact determination is difficult. Moreover, the 1839 Borodino coins were struck from a considerable number of die pairs, all of which are slightly different. There was no master hub for dies at St. Petersburg prior to 1844. RWJ Seems as "I have no opinion" verdict to me. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 This coin is a fake. It is relatively easy to compare this picture with the well known line of minted fakes. It is identical. The fake of this quality worth about $100 in my opinion. Person is Russia is obviously very limited in his/her actions. It can't be send back. If he/her sends it from Siberia to your parents and it's disappears, you will not refund? Put yourself in his shoes... Personally, I DO NOT sell to Russia anymore exactly for that reason. In this case i would return the money minus $100 and let him/her to keep it. What do you need this souvenir for, Ippocampos, anyway? You made a mistake twice selling a fake and selling it to Russia. It can not be returned reasonably safely. If you are so concerned about honesty - return the money and ask him/her to withdraw the negative feedback. I would agree 100% about selling to Russia. Lots of dealers refuse to ship to buyers from not just Russia but most of Eastern Europe these days. As far as letting the buyer keep the coin - why? Just because it is difficult to ship it from Komsomolsk to Moscow? The coin made it from outside of Russia to Komsomolsk, and what? there's no way it can make it to Moscow? I find this argument unconvincing. If I was in the buyer's situation - i.e. thinking that I've been had for $2500, I'd be very happy to spend $50 on shipping if that would get me my $2500 back! On top of that the coin has not gone through any legitimate certification, its authenticity or fakeness are not confirmed. Since the seller is willing to refund the money based on the buyer's unconfirmed opinion, the buyer has to return the coin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 I would agree 100% about selling to Russia. Lots of dealers refuse to ship to buyers from not just Russia but most of Eastern Europe these days. As far as letting the buyer keep the coin - why? Just because it is difficult to ship it from Komsomolsk to Moscow? The coin made it from outside of Russia to Komsomolsk, and what? there's no way it can make it to Moscow? I find this argument unconvincing. If I was in the buyer's situation - i.e. thinking that I've been had for $2500, I'd be very happy to spend $50 on shipping if that would get me my $2500 back! On top of that the coin has not gone through any legitimate certification, its authenticity or fakeness are not confirmed. Since the seller is willing to refund the money based on the buyer's unconfirmed opinion, the buyer has to return the coin. And he is not refusing to return it, just since he thinks he deals with dishonest seller he wants his money back first and does not want to risk losing all the money if coin gets lost in Russian mail system. Just Russian mentality. Could it be? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 And he is not refusing to return it, just since he thinks he deals with dishonest seller he wants his money back first and does not want to risk losing all the money if coin gets lost in Russian mail system. Just Russian mentality. Could it be? WCO it really funny to get money first... he must be SO SMART GUY...He better should think before to make such expensive purchase with no garantees. So he's the bad Player of the poker. He has to mail it that`s it. "Бояться Волка да в лес не ходить" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 And he is not refusing to return it, just since he thinks he deals with dishonest seller he wants his money back first and does not want to risk losing all the money if coin gets lost in Russian mail system. Just Russian mentality. Could it be? WCO Maybe, but I'm not convinced. He thinks the coin is only worth $100. What is he risking if it gets lost in the mail? Just $100. IPPOCAMPOS is risking to lose the coin that he thinks is worth $2500, if he returns the money first. I do not think this is a reasonable demand. And I hope a cooler judgment will prevail. I'm not sure how the Post works in Russia, but I would imagine there is something like insured mail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Maybe, but I'm not convinced. He thinks the coin is only worth $100. What is he risking if it gets lost in the mail? Just $100. IPPOCAMPOS is risking to lose the coin that he thinks is worth $2500, if he returns the money first. I do not think this is a reasonable demand. And I hope a cooler judgment will prevail. I'm not sure how the Post works in Russia, but I would imagine there is something like insured mail? I guess even probably he know that coin genuine and just feels sorry for $2500 he spent on purchase, he wanted to get it for $500, or $250 :-) But that is point also, want your money back just send a coin and not post negative feed back to the person who accepts returnes... But to tell you true russian buyers in the past pain in the.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted February 5, 2008 Report Share Posted February 5, 2008 Maybe, but I'm not convinced. He thinks the coin is only worth $100. What is he risking if it gets lost in the mail? Just $100. IPPOCAMPOS is risking to lose the coin that he thinks is worth $2500, if he returns the money first. I do not think this is a reasonable demand. And I hope a cooler judgment will prevail. I'm not sure how the Post works in Russia, but I would imagine there is something like insured mail? Even if he thinks the coin worth $100 or even completely worthless, he will lose $2500+ if coin gets lost in the mail. Since "no coin" means "no refund". I myself agree, he should send it back (in this particular case) before refund will be issued. Just imagine the coin will be lost in the mail system. Then buyer will be punished twice! And all this will be fault of seller who must authenticate any questionable coin before selling and he did not. 2 Marina: More suitable: С паршивой овцы, - хоть шерсти клок! WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Even if he thinks the coin worth $100 or even completely worthless, he will lose $2500+ if coin gets lost in the mail. Since "no coin" means "no refund". I myself agree, he should send it back (in this particular case) before refund will be issued. WCO there is one more chance to get part of money back, buy a ticket to suisse and give it to buyer's hand, in this case you will get at least something... minus ticket+visa expences :-) better than nothing. + you can give personal "hugs" to the seller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 RWJ, you are right. In that link they are slightly different. However there are many other examples. After all you are the one who wants to be sure. I'm already sure. So please do your search yourself. I'm not going to convince you. As I said before I do not find it appropriate to discuss fake's manufacturing improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 there is one more chance to get part of money back, buy a ticket to suisse and give it to buyer's hand, in this case you will get at least something... minus ticket+visa expences :-) better than nothing. + you can give personal "hugs" to the seller There is even better one. Ippocampus's father visiting Siberia. Cheap train tickets and 5-6 days from Leningrad (or Moscow) on train to Komsomolsk-on-Amur. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 There is even better one. Ippocampus's father visiting Siberia. Cheap train tickets and 5-6 days from Leningrad (or Moscow) on train to Komsomolsk-on-Amur. WCO wow! it possible will be super fight (heavyweight?) or with machine guns but if we could be serious, its both mistakes: Mistake of the seller that selling cheese without knowing its made from Cow or from Goat's milk. And mistake of the buyer spending money without knowing buyw cheese or S*** After this accident I believe russian buyers will love the Slabbed coins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Seems as "I have no opinion" verdict to me. WCO No that is not what I saId. Please read more carefully. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 ... ippocampus coin may be genuine but that I could not be certain. I see nothing so far that changes this view. ... RWJ RWJ, Do you believe the coin is authentic, not authentic or have no opinion? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 WCO, excuse me for correcting you but the question should be this way: Do you believe the coin is NOT authentic or have no opinion? Since nobody can declare authenticity from the picture of uncertified coin by a definition... As for me if I don't have an opinion I simply do not say anything. In this case I do. Whatever it worth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 In this case I do. Whatever it worth... Will you post a picture of any other similar fake coin? You sound pretty sure I guess you are able to provide us with different examples of one and the same fake. Untill then you did not convince me. If the buyer in Komsomolsk-Na-Amure wants to try to find the truth about the coin - he could post in this topic a hi-res picture of the coin including its edge. BTW, I think I may know the buyer - if my suspicion is correct - he is a dealer from far east Russia who sells in Molotok.ru, he sells fakes as well (!). I am not a frequent visitor on eBay but if anybody recognizes the coins under this link from eBay - he could trace it to the name of the buyer. http://molotok.ru/show_user_auctions.php?u...amp;gr_id=48405 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 If the buyer in Komsomolsk-Na-Amure wants to try to find the truth about the coin - he could post in this topic a hi-res picture of the coin including its edge. A link to this topic was posted in Ippocampos's reply to the buyer's negative feedback: Has Paid $2600,has got the forgery,has refused in return the payment. okcoin27 ( 157) Jan-31-08 02:35 Reply by ippocampos (Feb-02-08 02:24): Incorrect, pls see thread www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=18469 Nicholas I 1839. Borodino Battle Commemorative Rouble (#260186670745) US $2,577.00 So, the buyer is presumably aware of this discussion (even if one chooses to disbelieve Ippocampos's statement that he directed the buyer to this discussion). I therefore wonder why the buyer has apparently chosen not to do as you suggest. After all, if he can buy on ebay, then he must have internet access. If he has internet access, then he should be able to post to this website if he wishes to do that. The fact that he has apparently chosen not to do so or to contradict Ippocampos's account of what has occurred leads me to think that Ippocampos has been reliably reporting what has been happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And986 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 Timofei, as I said I'm not going to convince anybody over anything. It's my private opinion. May be you show me a catalog or auction or other reputable source picture that matches this thing... My certified coins are different, sales history pictures are different. Please show me reason of your doubts! Any picture matching this fake in the catalog I don't have may be? Why do I have to do all the work? The bottom line is - this fake's dies do not match anything described in the available literature. And some details DO match the described minted fakes varieties. I don't have time looking for source right now. Let it be just my words. I don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ippocampos Posted February 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 This coin is a fake. It is relatively easy to compare this picture with the well known line of minted fakes. It is identical. The fake of this quality worth about $100 in my opinion. Person is Russia is obviously very limited in his/her actions. It can't be send back. If he/her sends it from Siberia to your parents and it's disappears, you will not refund? Put yourself in his shoes... Personally, I DO NOT sell to Russia anymore exactly for that reason. In this case i would return the money minus $100 and let him/her to keep it. What do you need this souvenir for, Ippocampos, anyway? You made a mistake twice selling a fake and selling it to Russia. It can not be returned reasonably safely. If you are so concerned about honesty - return the money and ask him/her to withdraw the negative feedback. Thanks for your thoughts but.. maybe I am not clear this is not a 'souvenir' but right now a big headache! I want it back as i need to: 1) Go to the dealer / auction house who must explain why this is the case and if so they must not allow it in future, this is not acceptable. 2) To make better scans (I have a new scanner now) and find out as we are all interested to know what it really is. Had the buyer said its fake, refund me I will send it to you here is AWB number fine... no questions asked .. but how do you react if someone says you are a swindler, a crook, I will rip your head off.. and now after being directed to the thread says.. Give me 500$ its your lucky day I am coming to St petersburg for holiday...(no budget airlines?) ? Nevertheless I repeat I will work through this with him but have learned yet another lesson in life... Honesty has to work both ways otherwise its called stupidity. Now he is becoming more reasonable and we can talk sense. Maybe I go to Siberia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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