1859 Commemorative Ruble

[WCO]

1859 Commemorative Ruble. Please help with authenticity, possible grade and may be fair price of this particular coin. Any opinions are greatly appreciated. I would be especially grateful to hear opinions of Russian coinage experts as RW Julian and Steve Moulding. Thank you in advance for any help.

[grivna1726]

Here is 1859 Commemorative Ruble. Please help with authenticity, possible grade and may be fair price of this particular coin. Any opinions are greatly appreciated. I would be especially grateful to hear opinions of Russian coinage experts as RW Julian and Steve Moulding. Thank you in advance for any help.

 

Obverse:

 

http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003001054_2.jpg

 

Reverse:

 

http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003001054_3.jpg

 

 

For whatever it's worth (maybe not much), I see nothing which causes me to question the authenticity of this coin. It looks EF at the very least, maybe even unc.

 

Is the coin being offered by a known reputable source?

 

Value? I'll guess $600, but what I think is fair is often very different from what other bidders think, especially in today's market.

[WCO]

For whatever it's worth (maybe not much), I see nothing which causes me to question the authenticity of this coin. It looks EF at the very least, maybe even unc.

 

Is the coin being offered by a known reputable source?

 

Value? I'll guess $600, but what I think is fair is often very different from what other bidders think, especially in today's market.

 

Thank you soo much for your opinion!

[gxseries]

Looks alright to me too. That's a great example there WCO. I should have bought an example when I could have had the chance

[RW Julian]

Here is 1859 Commemorative Ruble. Please help with authenticity, possible grade and may be fair price of this particular coin. Any opinions are greatly appreciated. I would be especially grateful to hear opinions of Russian coinage experts as RW Julian and Steve Moulding. Thank you in advance for any help.

Obverse:

http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003001054_2.jpg

Reverse:

http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003001054_3.jpg

I have but four illustrations of this coin that have been downloaded (and my own specimen is in the bank and not available until Monday) but there are some problems with this coin. The lettering is spaced differently; in particular the obverse legend is closer to the border on the photographs that I have. The A of CAMOD... is closer to the head on your specimen when compared to the photos I have, for example. The period (dot) at the end of the legend is directly under the second letter I of LIALIN on the truncation in the photographs but not on this piece; it is slightly to the right of center. (All 4 photos appear to be from the same dies.)

 

It is known that low and high-relief specimens exist for this coinage but I do not have photos showing the difference. It may be that the 4 photos I have are all of the same variety and you have the other one. The St. Petersburg Mint began using full hubs (including the lettering) in 1844-1845 so it is hard to believe that the 1859 commemorative ruble did not use hubs.

 

Perhaps there is a reader/collector who has a specimen from these dies which was obtained prior to 1970?

 

RWJ

[WCO]

I have but four illustrations of this coin that have been downloaded (and my own specimen is in the bank and not available until Monday) but there are some problems with this coin. The lettering is spaced differently; in particular the obverse legend is closer to the border on the photographs that I have. The A of CAMOD... is closer to the head on your specimen when compared to the photos I have, for example. The period (dot) at the end of the legend is directly under the second letter I of LIALIN on the truncation in the photographs but not on this piece; it is slightly to the right of center. (All 4 photos appear to be from the same dies.)

 

It is known that low and high-relief specimens exist for this coinage but I do not have photos showing the difference. It may be that the 4 photos I have are all of the same variety and you have the other one. The St. Petersburg Mint began using full hubs (including the lettering) in 1844-1845 so it is hard to believe that the 1859 commemorative ruble did not use hubs.

 

Perhaps there is a reader/collector who has a specimen from these dies which was obtained prior to 1970?

 

RWJ

 

Thank you soo much for your time and answer. I am not sure I understand your verdict though. Is this piece not authentic or authentic or it is not possible to tell? From catalogs I know there were several varieties of this coin: Mint State high and low relief, MS Prooflikes high and low relief, Proofs and even obverses of medals used to make coins. I saw some coin on Triton IX auction about a year ago with somewhat different medallic obverse, but not sure if will be able to find it now. I mean a lot was done back then. So what do you suggest? Also what is wrong with usage of hubs on this particular coin?

[RW Julian]

The following Conros specimen illustrates the points made above:

 

http://auction.conros.ru/auction.cgi?lotID=109037

 

RWJ

[RW Julian]

Thank you soo much for your time and answer. I am not sure I understand your verdict though. Is this piece not authentic or authentic or it is not possible to tell? From catalogs I know there vere several varieties of this coin: Mint State high and low relief, MS Prooflikes high and low relief, Proofs and even obverses of medals used to make coins. I saw some coin on Triton IX auction about a year ago with somewhat different medallic obverse, but not sure if will be able to find it now. I mean a lot was done back then. So what do you suggest? Also what is wrong with usage of hubs on this particular coin?

Actually I do not have a verdict but the letters do appear to be exactly the same as those on known genuine pieces. It seems unlikely that a counterfeiter would go to that kind of trouble.

 

Generally speaking, however, the question of Proof or Prooflike does not enter in because this is a question of polishing the dies and preparation of planchets. Because the dies do not match what I have on hand in photographs I think it necessary to look further to see if a die match can be located on an unquestionably genuine piece.

 

Conros has had more than 200 auctions which can be easily accessed and perhaps it would be fruitful to examine the 1859s that appear there and are well photographed.

 

RWJ

[WCO]

Actually I do not have a verdict but the letters do appear to be exactly the same as those on known genuine pieces. It seems unlikely that a counterfeiter would go to that kind of trouble.

 

Generally speaking, however, the question of Proof or Prooflike does not enter in because this is a question of polishing the dies and preparation of planchets. Because the dies do not match what I have on hand in photographs I think it necessary to look further to see if a die match can be located on an unquestionably genuine piece.

 

Conros has had more than 200 auctions which can be easily accessed and perhaps it would be fruitful to examine the 1859s that appear there and are well photographed.

 

RWJ

 

Thank you so much RWJ! Very professional!

 

Before going into more research I may be wait, if someone else provides their opinion or may be similar coin made with exactly the same die will surface up.

[STEVE MOULDING]

This specimen shows the same obverse die that RWJ refers to (note the position of the period at the end of the legend). Same die as Conros/RWJ pieces, different die from yours.

Checking to see what other images I have....

 

Steve

 

 

[WCO]

This specimen shows the same obverse die that RWJ refers to (note the position of the period at the end of the legend). Same die as Conros/RWJ pieces, different die from yours.

Checking to see what other images I have....

 

Steve

 

 

 

Thank you so much, Steve. Well, I can't find for now any other looking coins than those 4 that already had RWJ. I checked already another several images. And still in catalogs listed other varieties, I just can't find any of them. I do not even know are all those coins high relief or low relief variety?

[STEVE MOULDING]

Thank you so much, Steve.

You're welcome. You probably have this but I'll include it as a reference benchmark image

 

From my Grand Duke Georgii Michailovich corpus...

 

 

[WCO]

You're welcome. You probably have this but I'll include it as a reference benchmark image

 

From my Grand Duke Georgii Michailovich corpus...

 

 

Bingo! Lettering looks quite close and definitely spaced differently too, but dot at the end of legend looks huge? May be it is just to me, starting to imagine things?

 

Anyway I finally found that completely different 1859 Ruble.

 

http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=7...mp;IsEnlarged=1

 

Unfortunately, the picture is too small, unable to see details well. There was another also different Ruble on that sales but went unsold (lot 2179) and they deleted the picture.

 

The issue becomes more and more complicated to me, more questions than answers.

[BKB]

I am not a great expert on Commemorative Coins, or anything for that matter... but this is what I see:

 

1. The coin purports to be Bit (2) 566 (Die in Relief). The best sign of that is the sideburn and the dot at the end of the reverse legend. However, I see elements of both the high relief variation and the low relief variation combined into one coin. I cannot tell from a photo whether it is a new variety or a fake.

 

2. Price -- MS -- $750+

Proof -- $1400+

 

(IMXO)

[WCO]

I am not a great expert on Commemorative Coins, or anything for that matter... but this is what I see:

 

1. The coin purports to be Bit (2) 566 (Die in Relief). The best sign of that is the sideburn and the dot at the end of the reverse legend. However, I see elements of both the high relief variation and the low relief variation combined into one coin. I cannot tell from a photo whether it is a new variety or a fake.

 

2. Price -- MS -- $750+

Proof -- $1400+

 

(IMXO)

 

Thank you so much for valuable addition! And what are distinguishable things that allow to say high relief, low relief or medallic obverse? Is there anything in Bitkin 2 about it? Also what "sideburn" you are referring to and at the end of which word should I look for a dot?

[worldcoinguy]

I have never had a keen eye for authentication of coins. With that on the table, I like it. The detail in the photo is nice. I would think it is in the AU-55 range, if not a MS-60.

 

Here is my 1859 in an ANACS holder. I sent it for authentication purposes, expecting a possible net grade for cleaning, but they apparently did not see it as distracting. They gave it a EF-40.

[STEVE MOULDING]

Here is my 1859 in an ANACS holder.

 

This is the first example in this thread with the 'Dot' (Obverse legend-end) as on WCO's coin.

All others so far (CNG,Conros,Moneti, & Grand Duke Michailovich) have the dot placement as noted by RWJ.

 

Steve

[WCO]

This is the first example in this thread with the 'Dot' (Obverse legend-end) as on WCO's coin.

All others so far (CNG,Conros,Moneti, & Grand Duke Michailovich) have the dot placement as noted by RWJ.

 

Steve

 

Dear Steve, does this just posted coin in ANACS holder looks for you the same as my coin? I am really lost now among that many details and variations.

[STEVE MOULDING]

Dear Steve, does this just posted coin in ANACS holder looks for you the same as my coin? I am really lost now among that many details and variations.

Yes. In my previous post I said that the ANACS coin does look like yours, and so is the first example we have seen in this thread which matches (so far I only checked the 'dot'). All other examples shown so far match RWJ's description.

 

I think so far we only have two variations.

(1) Yours(+ANACS)

(2) Others (RWJ/Conros/Moneti/GD/CNG)

 

Steve

[BKB]

Thank you so much for valuable addition! And what are distinguishable things that allow to say high relief, low relief or medallic obverse? Is there anything in Bitkin 2 about it? Also what "sideburn" you are referring to and at the end of which word should I look for a dot?

 

There is only one sideburn -- it is on the emperor's face :-) The lower portion of it is way more pronounced on the high relief variant. Also, the dot at the end of the reverse legend is smaller and is placed farther along the diameter of the coin on high relief variation. Thus, so far your coin fits the description... But, the ear, however, is much more similar to the low relief variation. The obverse (where the horse is :-)) should really be identical for both coins (at least according to Bitkin). As to medal -- its diameter is 37.2 as opposit to 35.5 for rouble. I do not think a rouble could be struck with medalic obverse.

 

Additionally, medallic obverse has the same ear as the high relief variation. Yours does not.

[WCO]

And what about the coin I found on Triton sale? They claim it is something well different (obverse). The link is above in this thread.

 

I also found this, looks different too:

 

http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003000969_3.jpg

 

http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003000969_4.jpg

[WCO]

There is only one sideburn -- it is on the emperor's face :-) The lower portion of it is way more pronounced on the high relief variant. Also, the dot at the end of the reverse legend is smaller and is placed farther along the diameter of the coin on high relief variation. Thus, so far your coin fits the description... But, the ear, however, is much more similar to the low relief variation. The obverse (where the horse is :-)) should really be identical for both coins (at least according to Bitkin). As to medal -- its diameter is 37.2 as opposit to 35.5 for rouble. I do not think a rouble could be struck with medalic obverse.

 

Additionally, medallic obverse has the same ear as the high relief variation. Yours does not.

 

 

Thanks a lot, BKB. Well, I definetely found a Ruble with medallic type obverse at Triton sale so they exist I guess. But overall, do you believe the coin is authentic, not authentic or not possible to say and more data is needed, or may be something like "most likely authentic than not" or on the contrary? I mean, at the end I want authentic piece, but what variety is not that important. Thank you in advance.

[BKB]

Thanks a lot, BKB. Well, I definetely found a Ruble with medallic type obverse at Triton sale so they exist I guess. But overall, do you believe the coin is authentic, not authentic or not possible to say and more data is needed, or may be something like "most likely authentic than not" or on the contrary? I mean, at the end I want authentic piece, but what variety is not that important. Thank you in advance.

 

When I need to determine the authenticity of a Commemorative coin I take the coin itself and at least three confirmed originals of the same coin. I then compare those under the microscope. I normally focus on small details, especially hair. It is impossible to tell whether this coin is original by comparing photographs. You need to see it in 3D. These commemoratives today are widely counterfeited. The quality of work is exceptional which is due to increased prices.

 

7 years ago I was offered 5 commemorative coins: AIII monument, 2 specimens of this coin (Horse), Borodino ruble, and Dvorik. All 5 turned out to be fake. It took me 3 days under the microscope to figure it out!!! The easiest to spot was Borodino (sword placement). The others had minor differences in haircut

[gxseries]

BKB, would you by any chance know where I can get those excellent high quality counterfeit coins at a cheap price?

 

Yes, it may sound mad but I personally would like to expose to the world of the high quality counterfeits of these coins. I personally have the 1839 Borodin and 1914 Gangut ruble and would like to expose the world of the existance of such high quality counterfeits.

[WCO]

When I need to determine the authenticity of a Commemorative coin I take the coin itself and at least three confirmed originals of the same coin. I then compare those under the microscope. I normally focus on small details, especially hair. It is impossible to tell whether this coin is original by comparing photographs. You need to see it in 3D. These commemoratives today are widely counterfeited. The quality of work is exceptional which is due to increased prices.

 

7 years ago I was offered 5 commemorative coins: AIII monument, 2 specimens of this coin (Horse), Borodino ruble, and Dvorik. All 5 turned out to be fake. It took me 3 days under the microscope to figure it out!!! The easiest to spot was Borodino (sword placement). The others had minor differences in haircut

 

 

You are saying it right, BKB. I wish I could have all varieties of this coin and indeed known that authentic, and preferably 10 pieces for each variety or better a 100.

 

Then I could sit and compare. But unfortunately, only a few museums can do such a thing and even they (like Hermitage or Russian State Historical museum) have some varieties missing even in their collections.

 

I understand that most Russian coins that worth even a few $$ and more to thousands are widely counterfeited, that's why I asked opinion of this board on the first place, knowing that many advanced collectors and experts are here (great people as well) and I get the right answers for my questions.

 

I do not think experts at NGC or PCGS have all world coins to look at when they do a counterfeit detection. They use other methods I guess than just simple comparison.

 

About group of coins-counterfeits you had. I agree completely with gxseries, this would be very interesting to expose these to the world as well as any other high quality counterfeits of any world coins. Crude fakes are immediately recognizable, but quality fakes should be learned about.