Patten, Fantasy - when are they considered as such

[gxseries]

Often before a coin is minted, it has to pass through a designing stage, which is normally done as under the name of "trial" or "pattern". And when such pattern design is accepted, it will no longer be a pattern, unless it had modifications to it.

 

The real question is, what is considered as pattern and fantasy? Does a pattern have to be designed by a member of the mint and cannot be designed the public? Or do samples pieces have to be created by the mint to be considered as pattern pieces?

 

Or can we be very blunt and say, if a particular "coin" isn't in a catalogue, it doesn't deserve to be considered as patterns?

 

This question made be wonder after the seeing the mass number of designs made for the Euro coinages, as well as some ridicious number of fantasy coins made by some unknown private mints.

[tabbs]

Don't think you will find a definition that can be universally applied. For me the bottom line is, if a piece is/was not legal tender, then it is not a coin. Now there were and are issues such as the Polish "proba" or Swiss "essai" pieces, actually issued by the official mints in Warsaw and Berne. Those could qualify as "official patterns" ...

 

As for the euro and ECU "patterns", well, the overwhelming majority are metallic disks with phantasy designs, "issued" by private manufacturers in order to make money - actual money - with those. Some others were made for and sold at Europe Days in various cities, but those were mostly promotional pieces, certainly not coins.

 

Christian

[jlueke]

The real question is, what is considered as pattern and fantasy? Does a pattern have to be designed by a member of the mint and cannot be designed the public? Or do samples pieces have to be created by the mint to be considered as pattern pieces?

In my mind patterns are coins struck by the governing authority with the intention of possibly becoming legal tender.

 

Fantasies are coins struck that never existed and were never going to circulate. Non-coins struck by private citizens would generally fall into te token category. So, in my world fantasies can be created only by illicit government employees and forgers.

[Ian]

In my mind patterns are coins struck by the governing authority with the intention of possibly becoming legal tender. 

 

Fantasies are coins struck that never existed and were never going to circulate.  Non-coins struck by private citizens would generally fall into te token category.  So, in my world fantasies can be created only by illicit government employees and forgers.

 

With French coinage of the 19th century, many patterns arose out of designers competing with each other and demonstrating their technical and artistic abilities to `La Monnaie' . The competition was fierce on occasion.

 

Fantasies can be created by anyone who has a `vision' and the technical wherewithall to follow through in having the fantasies struck.

 

For example the `British' euro patterns were designed and struck by a private mint. No government employees involved and certainly not `forgeries'. Forgery implies that there are legitimate `British' euro coins in the first place....There aren't.

 

Another fairly modern `fantasy' that shows up quite frequently has Mussolini on it. of course, there never were any coins with his bust on it, but someone somewhere felt there should be. It's not a token, because no -one uses it as an item tendered in exchange for goods or services. It's not produced by disgruntled govt. employees, and it doesn't claim to be a circulating coin so it ain't no forgery. ;-)

[Scottishmoney]

More to consider are the Model coins from 19th century Britain, with varieties such as silver centered pennies etc.

[jlueke]

Another fairly modern `fantasy' that shows up quite frequently has Mussolini on it. of course, there never were any coins with his bust on it, but someone somewhere felt there should be. It's not a token, because no -one uses it as an item tendered in exchange for goods or services. It's not produced by disgruntled govt. employees, and it doesn't claim to be a circulating coin so it ain't no forgery. ;-)

 

And so we begin the long process of refining definitions

 

I was thinking of fantasies of howing an issuer and a denomination, just as a legitimate coins would, but one that never existed.

 

If the Mussolini piece doesn't have a mark of value then it really should be in another category

[bill]

And so we begin the long process of refining definitions

 

I was thinking of fantasies of howing an issuer and a denomination, just as a legitimate coins would, but one that never existed.

 

If the Mussolini piece doesn't have a mark of value then it really should be in another category

 

I include in the term fantasy any piece that purports to be something it is not. There are some Mussolini and Hitler pieces that "seem" to be commemoratives, i.e. an issue of a government or other "legitimate" body. I termed these "fantasies and moderns" when cataloging Hitler medals. Some modern medals are clearly designed to be pieces commemorating historic events and people and some are parts of a series depicting historic events. They carry elements that identify them for what they are. I believe these are legimate items to collect as medals or tokens. Others are designed to appear to be official issues or even coins (some have denominations and are misrepresented as patterns, other mimic the designs of coins of the period without a denomination) and have no linkage to who issued them or why they were issued (other than to make money). I consider these to be fantasies. One can collect them, but I would argue to collect them as fantasies. They often appear to be silver even though they are not.

 

My (imaginary?) two cents!

[Ian]

And so we begin the long process of refining definitions

 

I was thinking of fantasies of howing an issuer and a denomination, just as a legitimate coins would, but one that never existed.

 

If the Mussolini piece doesn't have a mark of value then it really should be in another category

 

 

Here's a scan of a couple of `fantasy' pieces , one of which is our good friend Mussolini dated 1948 in roman nuerals obverse and with a date of 1928 on the column (reverse) also in roman numerals. it is given a notional value of 20 L (lire) and bears the R mm. signifying Rome. Of course, the denom and mm mean diddly squat. It could have been made in New York....but i doubt it.

 

 

The second is....well...not gold, but `golden' and purports to be Haitian. Yeah right! Birmingham, England more likely.

 

I also have a `fake' Vatican coin. The only visual detail that is wrong is the date. The forgers screwed up by a year, otherwise it would have been nigh on indistinguishable from the genuine item. It weighs in a little bit on the light side, but not as much as usual forgeries. Very few people would think of weighing it given that both its appearance and feel are pretty well spot on. Now, I wouldn't call it a `fantasy' because it deliberately mimics a circulation piece with the intent to deceive. It's a forgergy pure and simple.

 

Ian

[Sir Sisu]

This is the only piece that I own and one which I would define as a fantasy. It is modeled after the original 1934 issue, but this one was not intended to circulate nor was it a forgery (note the date). The Bank of Estonia did not have authority yet to issue its own coinage, but was in the works. Thus this is not an official attempt to use a pattern to reintroduce an old design, but more to awaken the independence movement in Estonia after the fall of the Wall and the slowly disintergrating Soviet state.

I have still not learned the exact reason why this was issued and by whom, but this is the general backgrouund info that I do know about it.

[Ian]

Neat coin!

 

I'd like to get hold of one of these.

 

Ian

[gxseries]

The only pattern or fantasy coin that I have this:

 

 

I am almost sure that it is a pattern coin, as it has similar technical aspects of what Moscow Mint would do, i.e. mintmark on the right, with the technical metal weight and refineness on the left, and the same diameter of what a typical gold coin would be like.

[Tiffibunny]

I have a couple...

 

 

2005 Provisional Revolutionary Government of the Republic of Monte Cristo (fantasy state), 10 Soldi, mintage 100, Nickel and laquered. Quality Challenge Coin, obverse: Pirate Knight Dragut, Reverse: Tribute to John Paul II

 

[Guest Aidan Work]

Sir Sisu,that Estonian 1990 1 Kroon coin is listed in Krause's 'Unusual World Coins'.It is not really a fantasy,as it is of the same metallic composition as the 1934 issue.

 

Tiffibunny,that is a very nice Welsh private pattern 25 ECU.It was actually struck at the Tower Mint,which is owned by Raphael Maklouf,who is best known as the designer of some of the portraits of Queen Elizabeth II on British & British Commonwealth coins.I have a British 5 ECU also dated 1992.I haven't got the English,Welsh,Scots,or Ulster private pattern ECU coins.Ireland also has a few attractive private pattern ECU coins depicting cats & mice.I will eventually get these.

 

Aidan.