LostDutchman Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 So MS63 seems to be the general opinion on quality? NO! I still think t has been tampered with...the haze around the edge in the latest picture is a sign of cleaning....I think EF cleaned is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtryka Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 33.4 grams is the correct weight, but as others have said it appears to be cleaned, so an EF grade is likely accurate. This is the most common Type 3 Lib, so it really doesn't achieve a premium value until you hit MS-63 or higher. At EF it's probably worth in the range of $550 to $600 based on gold at $480. By the way, the second photo looks a whole lot better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 Common man the stars are completely integrated in the color If you mean cleaned you must mean dipping and dipping selfmends itself in 5 to 10 years time This coin looks a solid MS 63 or better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 but after a cleaning the coin will never grade MS63 by any grading company....coins do over time get over a dip bath....but that is by retoning....gold does not tone....if you want a true answer send it to a grading serverice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 but after a cleaning the coin will never grade MS63 by any grading company....coins do over time get over a dip bath....but that is by retoning....gold does not tone....if you want a true answer send it to a grading serverice... common some grading companies will accept retoned gold coins and I live in a country were dollars and yen and gold coin exchanges are rated as equivalent for money exchangers In this system I know at least two ways to achieve non cleaned XF grade giving complete godprice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted October 12, 2005 Report Share Posted October 12, 2005 common some grading companies will accept retoned gold coins and I live in a country were dollars and yen and gold coin exchanges are rated as equivalent for money exchangers In this system I know at least two ways to achieve non cleaned XF grade giving complete godprice Which companies are those??? the only brand name company that I know of that will slab cleaned coins is ANACS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gpnyc Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 NCS will also slab cleaned coins. I still think this coin has been polished, not dipped. There is no way in the world this coin is MS-63. This is what an MS-63 looks like: 1899 $20 NGC MS-63 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 My friend is a retired american coindealer Here is his analyses concurring with my belgian opinion NOT cleaned Not that I can tell. The image is dithered (missing a bit of information by process of whatever made or last altered it trying to make it's size more manageable) so it's a bit difficult to be certain. Some dithered images, such as this one, are the equivilent of having someone print them on loosly woven cloth - there are tiny dots missing at equal intervals throughout the entire image. I circled the only three areas I could find that were of any concern to me. The cheek may be a die crack but it's unusual that it doesn't extend beyond the device and into the field - so - not sure. The other two are anybody's guess but don't appear to be serious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 like I said before send it to a grading company....from the pictures provided....I still say that coin has been cleaned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 like I said before send it to a grading company....from the pictures provided....I still say that coin has been cleaned It is easy for you to say to get it graded The person lives in Sweden so I assume he has about the same problems I would have from Belgium 35 euro to get it over by DHL and 25 for grading and another 35 Euro to get it back That is about 125 dollars On top of that there are untold forms to fill in that the coin is send for repair to the USA and not exported or re emported but simply in transit under no violation of export and import laws and if I remember correctly repair of originals is one off the transit types Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtryka Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 I've never seen a die crack on a gold coin in the center of the coin that doesn't extend to the edges. That is likely a rub on the cheek or a bag mark. I don't think anyone can say for sure without seeing it in hand, though I still believe it's been cleaned, and harshly at that. As for your coin dealer friend, I appreciate the input, however I have seen probably 80% of American coin dealers selling cleaned or whizzed coins as "uncleaned original coins" that no offense to him or lostdutchman, it really doesn't mean much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 Thanks for all the responce I have got I must say that the pictures I sent was not the best, as I have had some problems with the macro function on the camera. I have now taken some new pictures of the 20 dollar this time with a scanner. If you do not se the photo here is the link: http://hem.passagen.se/stockholms.myntklub...dollars1904.jpg I hope this will help. The coin weighs 33.4 grams and was bought at a noted scandinavian auction firm. I hope it is not a fake, as I like the coin. In Sweden were I live the higher grades are only EF, EF/Unc or Unc (in translation), and the opinion seems that no older gold coin can be Unc as the metall is to soft. This coin was graded EF by the auctionhouse, but as I can only se small and light scratches at the front but not any ones on the back I thought the grade must be higher and I think the grading here is a bit to consevative. It is also interesting to know the grade in US. as it is a coin from there. So MS63 seems to be the general opinion on quality? //Joakim I bought a french 100 FF angel coin from Jean Elsen as XF Me and my friend graded it as MS 64 In Europe any kind of bagmark will send it into the XF category whilst in the US the most battered and scarred coin still makes MS 60 for bagmarks without wear I think yours might come back MS 63 with diecrack or something alike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 I've never seen a die crack on a gold coin in the center of the coin that doesn't extend to the edges. That is likely a rub on the cheek or a bag mark. I don't think anyone can say for sure without seeing it in hand, though I still believe it's been cleaned, and harshly at that. As for your coin dealer friend, I appreciate the input, however I have seen probably 80% of American coin dealers selling cleaned or whizzed coins as "uncleaned original coins" that no offense to him or lostdutchman, it really doesn't mean much. If I choose to sell a cleaned coin I mark it as such but I go to shows all the time and you do see a lot of coins that aren't marked as cleaned being sold and sometimes sold as Uncirculated..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ageka Posted October 13, 2005 Report Share Posted October 13, 2005 I've never seen a die crack on a gold coin in the center of the coin that doesn't extend to the edges. That is likely a rub on the cheek or a bag mark. I don't think anyone can say for sure without seeing it in hand, though I still believe it's been cleaned, and harshly at that. As for your coin dealer friend, I appreciate the input, however I have seen probably 80% of American coin dealers selling cleaned or whizzed coins as "uncleaned original coins" that no offense to him or lostdutchman, it really doesn't mean much. I agree completely I have never ever been fooled in real life because I have my LED loupe 10X magnification with me and I have never ever been fooled by a scanner picture However both of us have been fooled by photos and gotten jewellery cleaned for MS announced grade and the cleaning was glared out by overlighting the coin Now on this specimen we both independently manipulated the pictures and any harsh cleaning would have eliminated the scratch on the face and would have surrounded the stars with original lustre But the cleaned versus uncleaned is an intresting discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bifrost Posted October 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2005 Hi again, It is a really interesting discussion about the 20 USD coin. It is right that it is difficult for me to get the coin graded here in Sweden as it is a different grading system. However my mother is travelling to Toronto by the end of this month. I shall ask her to bring the coin with her and take it to a coin dealer for geting a grading opinion. I agree that it is difficult to get a good idea from a photo or a scan. For myself even the lover EF grade would make the coin a good bought, if it is a MS-63 I am even happier! I shall return with a post when I get the grading information from toronto. Best Regards and thanks for all the interest // Joakim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bifrost Posted November 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Well now I have got the information that in two Toronto coinshops thought the coin was MS62 and MS63 respectively. I see on the PCGS site that there is a big price difference between this two grades. // Joakim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 the best thing I can tell you is to send it in to either PCGS or NGC.....if their is such a big price jump the coin NEEDS to be in a holder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 It has to be slabbed at all costs... of course you, if you are going to be the seller wants to grade it at a higher margin and a buyer would want to pay little less, so will grade at all extremes. It would be better off to be graded, even if I am quite opposed on grading itself. Afterall, price does matter doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coinmonster Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Great thread everyone! I have learned a little bit from this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bifrost Posted November 15, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 Thanks for the info. I shall consider doing it, at least if I am going to sell it. When I take a trip to the US. I shall certainly do it. For the moment I think to keep it, even though I am mostly a banknote collector. Thank´s //Joakim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtryka Posted November 15, 2005 Report Share Posted November 15, 2005 even though I am mostly a banknote collector. Well, I would be happy to exchange that coin for a 1914 $20 note if you want, after all, those notes were redeemable in gold! I agree with the statements above though, you should have it certified by either NGC or PCGS, as those two are the standard. If I were you, I would hope for MS-62, and then be happy with an MS-63, since I've found that it's really hard to get a Liberty double eagle to grade that high, which explains the sizable jump in price between the two grades. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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