Some doubts!?

[alexbq2]

Once again I am perplexed about a medal. This time it is a coronation medallion of Peter II. Main problem is - I've never seen one live. And I can't even find decent pictures of one. This silver medallion is about 42mm in diameter and weighs in at 39.3 grams.

 

I find the surface of this medallion a bit peculiar. And a large number of cuds are present on both sides. The edge looks perfect. Smooth, sharp right angled, no dents, no signs of tooling. The medallion rings with a very melodic sound (silver pitch), that resonates for quite some time.

 

I have found 1 record of sale of a similar object at MiM auction 43, lot 61. I do not have a decent picture though. Here's the description from that website:

 

"Медаль в память коронования Императора Петра II, 25 февраля 1728 г. СПб монетный двор, 1728 г. Без подписи медальера. Серебро, 27,12 г. Диаметр 43 мм. Сохранность отличная. Смирнов# 215в. Соколов# 169.г. Очень редкая."

 

As you can see theirs is much lighter.

 

I have been able to find a copy of the Smirnoff book, and he does not provide much information. No weight. Diameter 43mm. As far as I can see, the image in his book exhibits similar surface cuds.

 

Any opinions as to what I am dealing with?

 

 

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[one-kuna]

Once again I am perplexed about a medal. This time it is a coronation medallion of Peter II. Main problem is - I've never seen one live. And I can't even find decent pictures of one. This silver medallion is about 42mm in diameter and weighs in at 39.3 grams.

 

I find the surface of this medallion a bit peculiar. And a large number of cuds are present on both sides. The edge looks perfect. Smooth, sharp right angled, no dents, no signs of tooling. The medallion rings with a very melodic sound (silver pitch), that resonates for quite some time.

 

I have found 1 record of sale of a similar object at MiM auction 43, lot 61. I do not have a decent picture though. Here's the description from that website:

 

"Медаль в память коронования Императора Петра II, 25 февраля 1728 г. СПб монетный двор, 1728 г. Без подписи медальера. Серебро, 27,12 г. Диаметр 43 мм. Сохранность отличная. Смирнов# 215в. Соколов# 169.г. Очень редкая."

 

As you can see theirs is much lighter.

 

I have been able to find a copy of the Smirnoff book, and he does not provide much information. No weight. Diameter 43mm. As far as I can see, the image in his book exhibits similar surface cuds.

 

Any opinions as to what I am dealing with?

 

 

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looks to me as from ebay recent offering

[constanius]

The cud between 8 & 9 o'clock on the obverse, which links two tresses of hair, appears to be the same on your medal as the image from the book, as do the 2 between 9 & 10 behind the head. So to my eyes it looks as if it was probably struck from the same die. Ditto for the reverse cuds.

[alexbq2]

The cud between 8 & 9 o'clock on the obverse, which links two tresses of hair, appears to be the same on your medal as the image from the book, as do the 2 between 9 & 10 behind the head. So to my eyes it looks as if it was probably struck from the same die. Ditto for the reverse cuds.

 

Yes, I have noticed that, although mine seems to have some extra cuds. Unfortunately, this picture is not very high quality. And the discrepancy in weight with the MiM medallion puzzles me.

 

Any other published references or information on this item are certainly welcome!

[IgorS]

Your piece certainly has some relationship to the picture from Sokolov and the one from MiM. The cuds mentioned earlier are there.

I am not sure I like the border being so perfect, since it is not perfect in the other two examples. Also the details seem to be watered down some (could be the picture).

The perfect edge points away from the 18th century. The fact that Smirnov had the die description without engraver's signature could mean that new dies were cut for a 43 mm medal.

Diakov only lists 43 mm medal with initials OK, so these dies did not make it to 1908 when Smirnov published his inventory of the medal dies at the mint. I think your piece requires more study.

Bring it to New York International.

[bill]

I don't know Russian medals, so take my word for what it is, totally uninformed. I will note that some French medals were struck from dies with rust and cuds. I don't know what the conditions were for storage, but some didn't fair well before their use. I'm guessing there were similar problems at other mints.

[alexbq2]

Your piece certainly has some relationship to the picture from Sokolov and the one from MiM. The cuds mentioned earlier are there.

I am not sure I like the border being so perfect, since it is not perfect in the other two examples. Also the details seem to be watered down some (could be the picture).

The perfect edge points away from the 18th century. The fact that Smirnov had the die description without engraver's signature could mean that new dies were cut for a 43 mm medal.

Diakov only lists 43 mm medal with initials OK, so these dies did not make it to 1908 when Smirnov published his inventory of the medal dies at the mint. I think your piece requires more study.

Bring it to New York International.

 

Very interesting! So you are suggesting this may be a Novodel made with rusty dies?

 

I doubt that I can make it to New York around the New Year's. I intend to be in Florida at that time:)

[alexbq2]

I don't know Russian medals, so take my word for what it is, totally uninformed. I will note that some French medals were struck from dies with rust and cuds. I don't know what the conditions were for storage, but some didn't fair well before their use. I'm guessing there were similar problems at other mints.

 

Thanks for the information. I am use to seeing coins struck by overworked and damaged dies. Medals, I thought, were more presentation oriented. I do know that some medals were reissued, years after the original issue (say on an anniversary of that event). Often mixing up original dies with newly cut ones. It's good to know that using damaged dies was not an uncommon practice.

[IgorS]

Very interesting! So you are suggesting this may be a Novodel made with rusty dies?

 

 

Some kind of dies... Needs further study.

[one-kuna]

in my opinion, if this medal from recent ebay auction, it is not original but modern cut - one of the reason i did not participate in this auction however because it was discussed during with other forum member and we concluded that it is not original but even this one made so nice and it can cost the price that auction ended even more for very nice job, - all above is my opinion

[grivna1726]

Very interesting! So you are suggesting this may be a Novodel made with rusty dies?

Such things do exist. HERE is an example of a medal struck with rusty dies.

[BKB]

Your piece certainly has some relationship to the picture from Sokolov and the one from MiM. The cuds mentioned earlier are there.

I am not sure I like the border being so perfect, since it is not perfect in the other two examples. Also the details seem to be watered down some (could be the picture).

The perfect edge points away from the 18th century. The fact that Smirnov had the die description without engraver's signature could mean that new dies were cut for a 43 mm medal.

Diakov only lists 43 mm medal with initials OK, so these dies did not make it to 1908 when Smirnov published his inventory of the medal dies at the mint. I think your piece requires more study.

Bring it to New York International.

 

There is another one in gold -- Hess 1939. I know you can look it up :-) The border is also far from perfect. And, if it is not perfect in gold...

[RW Julian]

From the 1950 sale of the Grand Duke’s gold coins and medals.

 

[alexbq2]

From the 1950 sale of the Grand Duke’s gold coins and medals.

 

 

Thank You for the picture, but this is one of the larger medallions. Note that the portrait and the inscription the reverse are different.

[alexbq2]

There is another one in gold -- Hess 1939. I know you can look it up :-) The border is also far from perfect. And, if it is not perfect in gold...

 

Not sure where to find it. I would appreciate it if could you post a picture. Many Thanks!

[alexbq2]

Such things do exist. HERE is an example of a medal struck with rusty dies.

 

Thanks for an example! I'm a bit surprised. Seems counter-intuitive to strike medals (that are essentially art and presentation objects) with rusty dies.

[one-kuna]

Not sure where to find it. I would appreciate it if could you post a picture. Many Thanks!

1939 and 1950 auctions are of same collection of

the Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich Romanov

The photo given by RWJ is from there

[one-kuna]

In addition to GM sample please find one in silver

from our new yorker collector Leonidas Hermes collection

of Russian coins and Commemorative medals auctioned by Baldwin's

sale #10 back to April 1997 lot 643

[IgorS]

The easy way to tell the difference between the large and the small coronation medal is the missing date of the event, with only the year present.

[one-kuna]

The easy way to tell the difference between the large and the small coronation medal is the missing date of the event, with only the year present.

and the legend is located different places OT TEBIA STOBOYU I KSLAVE TVOEJ

[nicholasz219]

and the legend is located different places OT TEBIA STOBOYU I KSLAVE TVOEJ

 

Yes, why would they strike medals with rusty dies? It doesn't make sense to me.

[one-kuna]

Yes, why would they strike medals with rusty dies? It doesn't make sense to me.

well, we all searching for the correct answer, but which one is right