Jeff Posted March 12, 2010 Report Share Posted March 12, 2010 Hi All Im am a new member of your nice forum and my name is Jeff. I´m not really a coin collector but more metal detectorist,but the coins i find i collect I found this coin last year in Nothern Bavaria searching in the area of a monasterie and was wondering what it is.I think it maybe french. Its 96.50% silver. Could someone help with an ID? Thx. Greetings from Germany Jeff.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2010 I tried to add both Pics but for some reason it didn´t work even thought both Pics together are about 101k. Here is the Pic of the other side. Sry. Jeff.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saor Alba Posted March 12, 2010 Report Share Posted March 12, 2010 It appears to me to be one of the Crusader states, most likely Tripoli in what is now Lebanon. Quite a few of the Crusaders were French and they brought their influences with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted March 12, 2010 Report Share Posted March 12, 2010 it's a beauty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 12, 2010 Report Share Posted March 12, 2010 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 12, 2010 Report Share Posted March 12, 2010 It says TVRONVS CIVIS which I believe means (city of Tours). The reverse center reads 'ROBERTVS DVX'...the rest I cannot read...the picture is ridiculously small for trying to make out details on the coin...which might be on purpose since it also looks so outstanding and new. I assume the small outer text has some version of this: BNDICTV · SIT · NOmЄ · DNI · nRI · DЄI · IhV · XPI So I assume its supposed to be Duke Robert of Tours... If you have this coin, post larger pics. Even with these very small pictures, this coin looks real sharp and newly minted compared to all other examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cristoph Posted March 12, 2010 Report Share Posted March 12, 2010 Hi All Im am a new member of your nice forum and my name is Jeff. I´m not really a coin collector but more metal detectorist,but the coins i find i collect I found this coin last year in Nothern Bavaria searching in the area of a monasterie and was wondering what it is.I think it maybe french. Its 96.50% silver. Could someone help with an ID? Thx. Greetings from Germany Jeff.. I think it is a french coins. On the face you can read: +TURONUS CIVIS, the coin was mint in city of Tours (France). On the revers you can read in the center: +ROBERTUS DUX. You can find heare some others coins like yours but issued by others kings. http://www.coinarchives.com/w/results.php?...amp;results=100 I don't know more about french medieval coins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 ... Well Mr.Drusus are you implying i made the Pics smaller on purpose? When yes,then i think i came to the wrong forum. When it say Max. single upload size is 100k then thats all im uploading or am i doing somthing wrong? This coin was dug up by me personally from nice sandy ground and has 96% silver content,thats the reason it looks outstanding,or maybe i minted it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 I cant get any better with 100k Its nice to be greeted to the forum as a swindler by Mr.Drusus and it would be nice in the future if he kept his stupid ass comments to himself. Jeff.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Your coin is AR gros tournois reference Saulcy.V.2 TVRONVS CIVIS City of Tours The reverse center reads 'ROBERTVS DVX' The small outer text has some version of this: BNDICTV · SIT · NOmЄ · DNI · nRI · DЄI · IhV · XPI Its supposed to be an issue by Duke Robert of Bar 1354 to 1411 minted after the style of the Frence monarch like the ones shown in the above link to coin achives. I have never seen one before, I believe they are rather rare, but I have seen many of this type and style. Often people come in here with a small picture and a fake coin to get info only to find them for sale even though they know they are fake. It seems so sharp (so unlike this type of coin) and new...I assumed it was fake. My apologies for being an ass. I have posted this in a place where others who know this type of coin more so they might look at it and be of help. I wouldnt even know the value as I have never seen one for sale. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_of_Bar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_of_Bar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Apologie accepted I would also be sceptical if someone showed me a coin thats over 600 yrs old and in this condition.I think the condition has alot to do with the very low ground mineralization,sand and the silver content.I have also dug up copper coins from the 1700s from this area and were also in very good condition. I scaned the material Evaluation and tried to post it,but it came out blury so i didn´t post it. I really dont know how to get better Pics with only 100k max upload. Anyway thx everyone for the help P.S. I forgot to say the wieght is 3.2 grams and is 2 1/2 cm wide. Jeff.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigers Posted March 14, 2010 Report Share Posted March 14, 2010 Nice coins you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
constanius Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 . When it say Max. single upload size is 100k then thats all im uploading or am i doing somthing wrong? Open a free account with photobucket & you can post a link by copying and pasting the IMG. Or, if you prefer you can download Irfanview for free & resize &/or resample large photos and still keep them under 50k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 P.S. I forgot to say the wieght is 3.2 grams and is 2 1/2 cm wide. Jeff.. That is within acceptable size and weight for the type. Most coins like these are rather common as they were minted by the Frence Kings starting around Louis IX (I think) and successive kings minted coins in this style for a time. Other royalty minted coins in this style but in far less numbers. This would be an imitative gros tournois and I think it would be very rare. In what appears to me close to mint condition (IMO) it would be even more rare. This type, close to this condition by French Kings like Louis or Philippe (III or IV) sell for roughly 500+ USD while imitative examples by people like Wilhelm I or Charles I (Anjou) often sell for more even when in worse condition. So I can only assume this example you have, being rather a rare type as well as in such exceptional condition would sell for well over 600 USD...probably closer to 1000 USD or more maybe? Its hard to say. If I were you I would show this coin to experts in this type of coin for better info. and realistic value....and if you don't mind I have kept the photo you provided as there are no others to be found (as far as I can tell) of this coin type online. If I come across others then it can be compared. My very first thought when I saw it was that it was a well made fake of a very rare coin...I still have my doubts as to the authenticity but I was unfair to judge you and your motives. The devices are all correct, style seems good and size and weight are good (but then again a person faking such a coin would keep these things in mind). So I cannot condemn the coin (nor would I) without being able to compare it to other known examples which I cannot do as there are no other examples to be found online or in any books I have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 @Drusus Thx Drusus for the information Lets just say its a fake for conversational purposes,If someone forged this coin then what is it doing laying about 20cm in the ground by a monastary? Being at that depth it must have been droped a long long time ago. Were people for a few hundred years able to counterfit a coin of this quality? Do you know of any experts/forums that would have more info about this coin? Im posting two more enlarged pics of the coin. hope they are better. @constanius Thx for the info about photobucket Jeff.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 http://i968.photobucket.com/albums/ae170/Jeffreylee1965/frog2.jpg[/img Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 I am not saying its fake and to be fair I never said it was. My first impression from the original picts was that it looked fake and I was simply suspicious of such a coin popping up because of past experience. I cant say if it is or not but I WOULD, if I were you, try to find someone to look at it that knows more about this specific type of coin, that is, imitative Gros Tornois, not the ones minted by the French Kings. If it were the type of coin one could pull up nice high res images of and compare (or that I have seen often), that would make it much easier but that's not the case here as this coin seems to be rare enough not to have any other examples to be easily found and none listed for sale anywhere and none listed as sold at places like coinarchives. Its probably pretty rare. My main reason for thinking it fake after the first viewing was its sharpness, it seems sharper and in better condition than most if not all of this type that I have seen while most imatative ones I have seen seem a bit rougher...so again I must apologize for even insinuating you might be trying to pass off a fake. More often than not, if I cannot say for sure, then I do not say...and to be honest, I didn't say it was fake. It doesn't help that I just finished dealing with a guy who was trying to pawn off a fake coin after getting me to attribute it...the interaction started in the same way this one did...a guy appears on the forum with a coin asking what it is...this one was an OBVIOUS fake (I know ancient more than middle ages) then the next day someone finds the coin posted on a Russian auction site...we get the site to take it down then he comes back angered and insulting us saying he would sell it one way or the other. As for why a fake coin would be buried...a bit ago someone came to the forum with a well known fake of a Judean coin which was buried in Oklahoma. Why it was there, I don't know, but it was certainly a fake placed there. Some people make fakes then plant them just to see if they can make a fake that will be accepted as real...its like a challenge. I would suggest that one possible place to try is the British Museum, they have a very good department dedicated to coins and it is possible they could either tell you more or point you in the right direction. http://www.britishmuseum.org/about_this_site/contact_us.aspx ^^ Go there and go to 'departments' you will find a contact for 'coins and medals'...if the coin is real...even a small charge to authenticate it would easily be covered a thousand fold if you were to sell it. Tell them where you found it, present them with my attribution and see what they say. Also, once I get home, I can direct you to the place I found that lists this coin (without a picture sadly). You can possibly e-mail them as well. Since they have it listed as (I think) a part of a collection, they might have an example they can compare yours to. I have saved out your images...after all, as far as I can tell, they are the only ones on the internet of this type!!! If I find out anything more I will not hesitate to post it and, if you don't mind, if you find out more about it, let us know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted March 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 Well thx for taking the time helping me about this coin. I´ve no intention of selling it (only if i need to put food on the table) but like i said im a coin/relic hunter and all my coins come from the ground and not bought.Coins are not my past time,but they are a part of history and (finding) a real old coin makes me feel im part of it. The only real reason the worth would interest me is for insurance grounds only. About ancient coins.A friend of mine found a small coin last year (we believe celtic) but cant identify it. Can you identify coins from the different celtic tribes? I need to get it from him and post some pics so some of you experts can take a look. Regards Jeff.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 Well good luck and I certainy hope it is exactly what it appears to be as I believe you have a rare find if so. As for Celtic, I know very little, my main focus is Roman and Greek though I do know a bit about them as do others here if you want to post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drusus Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Not sure if your still checking back but here are a few other example of this coin that sold relatively recently: Price realized 430.00 USD...this listing states the coin is rare....this coin is certainly not in near as good condition as yours. Here is one that looks SLIGHTLY closer to the quality and sharpness of your example but still not near as nice: Price realized in 2008 was 960.00 USD this example shows porosity in the surface, probably from the elements....its a rather sharp strike though. These coins are in the condition one would expect to see them in and you can see that yours, as far as I can tell from pics, is in better condition than both. So you can probably ascertain that if yours is genuine, it would easily be worth 1000+ USD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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