5kop1790KM - is this Bitkin 801 (R1) ?

[sigistenz]

Hi, the coin in the middle is the suspect. The ribbon is like the 1789 one, but the mintmark letters are somewhat larger,

however not as large as the normal 1790KM pictured at the right. I bought the coin in the middle as the rare Bitkin 801 (R1).

What do you think? Is it the rare variant? Thank you, Sigi

By sigistenz

[one-kuna]

Hi, the coin in the middle is the suspect. The ribbon is like the 1789 one, but the mintmark letters are somewhat larger,

however not as large as the normal 1790KM pictured at the right. I bought the coin in the middle as the rare Bitkin 801 (R1).

What do you think? Is it the rare variant? Thank you, Sigi

 

The coin in a center is Bitkin 802 with many variants letter larger smaller, etc.

 

[RW Julian]

Hi, the coin in the middle is the suspect. The ribbon is like the 1789 one, but the mintmark letters are somewhat larger,

however not as large as the normal 1790KM pictured at the right. I bought the coin in the middle as the rare Bitkin 801 (R1).

What do you think? Is it the rare variant? Thank you, Sigi

I think that your piece is Bitkin 801. Not only is the mintmark about the same

size but the scroll is also. The larger mintmark is accompanied by the larger

scroll containing FIVE KOPECKS. It is not a novodel, which is Bitkin H800.

 

RWJ

[grivna1726]

I think that your piece is Bitkin 801. Not only is the mintmark about the same

size but the scroll is also. The larger mintmark is accompanied by the larger

scroll containing FIVE KOPECKS. It is not a novodel, which is Bitkin H800.

 

RWJ

The "H" in Bitkin's "H800" listing is a Cyrillic "N" - which refers to "Novodel".

[one-kuna]

Hi, the coin in the middle is the suspect. The ribbon is like the 1789 one, but the mintmark letters are somewhat larger,

however not as large as the normal 1790KM pictured at the right. I bought the coin in the middle as the rare Bitkin 801 (R1).

What do you think? Is it the rare variant? Thank you, Sigi

 

 

According the large copper auction #11 of Alexander Auction house, January 2009, lot 456 -

same as your coin in a center (Bitkin 802), see below photos

 

http://www.adacoins.ru/coin_popup.php?aid=...&type=bimga

 

http://www.adacoins.ru/coin_popup.php?aid=...&type=bimgr

 

Now, below is a novodel from Hesselgesser collection,

Ira & Larry Goldberg The Pre-Long Beach Auction 2005, page 312, lot 1876, NOVODEL, PCGS MS-65

 

http://www.mkjassociates.com/cgi-bin/ilgvu...31&lot=1876

 

[bobh]

I have to agree with RW Julian on this ... the scroll and its lettering of Sigi's coin in the middle is clearly smaller than the Bitkin 802 pieces, both Sigi's and the image from the Alexander auction. It is difficult to see, but the scroll in the Alexander auction coin is clipped at the top, making it look smaller. The lettering, however, is larger than the lettering on Sigi's coin. And the novodel is totally different from both.

 

Good find, Sigi!

[alexbq2]

Bitkin 801! No doubts.

[one-kuna]

one from hundreds mistakes in Bitkin catalog

[alexbq2]

one from hundreds mistakes in Bitkin catalog

 

Type wise there's no mistake. 1790 to 1796 have larger font size. This coin has 1789/1790 die combination. Same idea as your 1769 EM 5 kopeeks.

 

Are you referring to the rarity assigned to this variant by Bitkin?

[one-kuna]

Are you referring to the rarity assigned to this variant by Bitkin?

yes

[sigistenz]

Thank you all. When I got my 5kop1790KM I discovered that Bitkin lists 2 of them (and so did Michailovitch/Diakov, Ilyin and Brekke). Mine was the common variant with the large scroll. I began looking for the narrow scroll. But all the 1790KMs I examined from then on had the large scroll. Finally after 2 years of watching I found my narrow scroll (center coin above) in an old collection to be broken up. From my experience I can assure you that it shows up much less than the large scroll . Sigi

[alexbq2]

Thank you all. When I got my 5kop1790KM I discovered that Bitkin lists 2 of them (and so did Michailovitch/Diakov, Ilyin and Brekke). Mine was the common variant with the large scroll. I began looking for the narrow scroll. But all the 1790KMs I examined from then on had the large scroll. Finally after 2 years of watching I found my narrow scroll (center coin above) in an old collection to be broken up. From my experience I can assure you that it shows up much less than the large scroll . Sigi

 

I guess Bitkin is correct

[grivna1726]

Thank you all. When I got my 5kop1790KM I discovered that Bitkin lists 2 of them (and so did Michailovitch/Diakov, Ilyin and Brekke). Mine was the common variant with the large scroll. I began looking for the narrow scroll. But all the 1790KMs I examined from then on had the large scroll. Finally after 2 years of watching I found my narrow scroll (center coin above) in an old collection to be broken up. From my experience I can assure you that it shows up much less than the large scroll . Sigi

Congratulations on your astute purchase of a genuinely rare coin.

 

I believe that it would have gone unrecognized by many others who looked at it.

[sigistenz]

Congratulations on your astute purchase of a genuinely rare coin.

 

I believe that it would have gone unrecognized by many others who looked at it.

 

Thank you, sounds good - - but it also indicates the degree of my addiction. Sigi

 

 

By sigistenz at 2009-01-20

[squirrel]

There is another possibility.

This may be a new discovery coin. the mint letters K M seem to be larger than the "smaller" variety, and yet not as big as the "larger" variant used later. Clearly, the denomination banner is the smaller variety.

 

Nice coins, Sigi!

 

Here is another variant, see description in link....

http://www.sixbid.com/nav.php?p=viewlot&am...15&lot=1189

[sigistenz]

Hi Squirrel, nice to see you back! I think now that there were quite some minor and major variants of the 5kop1790KM. As One-kuna said above.

My center coin is not exactly the Bitkin 801(R1) variant but it differs enough from my Bitkin 802 to keep both of them in custody. Sigi

[RW Julian]

Hi Squirrel, nice to see you back! I think now that there were quite some minor and major variants of the 5kop1790KM. As One-kuna said above.

My center coin is not exactly the Bitkin 801(R1) variant but it differs enough from my Bitkin 802 to keep both of them in custody. Sigi

I am still of the opinion that you have Bitkin 801. The style of the letter M on the middle

coin, while slightly larger, is of the same design as the first coin as far as I can tell from

the photos. Your third coin (Bitkin 802) has an M of a different style.

 

RWJ

[one-kuna]

Hi Squirrel, nice to see you back! I think now that there were quite some minor and major variants of the 5kop1790KM. As One-kuna said above.

My center coin is not exactly the Bitkin 801(R1) variant but it differs enough from my Bitkin 802 to keep both of them in custody. Sigi

 

 

only nine dollars and change so far for this variant

 

http://www.molotok.ru/item658493777_5_kope...0_goda_km.html#

[one-kuna]

 

 

only 257 and change so far for another variant

 

http://www.molotok.ru/item658630025_5_kope...ostoyanie.html#

[one-kuna]

two things:

*it is bad that we do not live in Russia so we cannot get coins and their multiple variants from there

*Bitkin catalog is the one of world-wide recognized, however there are many significant discrepancies; Bitkin close this coin as R1, and I was wondering from whom did he get this rarity? from Brekke, Ilyin,? from his own collection or from his unknown friend? those variants above as I presented here brings more questions...why Bitkin cannot answer? why we need to guess or going through the logic what Bitkin meant giving R1 or nothing, or looking other sources like auction catalogs with nice picture to identify something which come up for our mutual interest? these are not the questions to all, it is my own opinion on this particular topic

[bobh]

those variants above as I presented here brings more questions...why Bitkin cannot answer? why we need to guess or going through the logic what Bitkin meant giving R1 or nothing, or looking other sources like auction catalogs with nice picture to identify something which come up for our mutual interest? these are not the questions to all, it is my own opinion on this particular topic

Mr. Bitkin himself is actually a member of this forum, I believe ... perhaps someone should try to send him a personal message?

[sigistenz]

Mr. Bitkin himself is actually a member of this forum, I believe ... perhaps someone should try to send him a personal message?

 

Good idea Bob - it could have been mine!! Personal message sent. I asked him to reply directly to the forum. Let's see.

Thank you for the good idea! Sigi

[one-kuna]

Good idea Bob - it could have been mine!! Personal message sent. I asked him to reply directly to the forum. Let's see.

Thank you for the good idea! Sigi

responding takes long time to focus ...

[Nordic gold]

 

Here´s another specimen. Maybe this type of the coin with the smaller scroll is not that scarce after all.

 

In fact I wonder how the theory or the two (main) varieties of this coin actually hold at all.

 

First, as I think, let us assume the varieties are distinguishable only in the reverse. There is the Bitkin 801 type with the extremely small mintmark (height 1,8 - 2 mm) resembling the one used in 1789, small letters in the scroll and a finely executed double-headed bird. Then there is the Bitkin 802 type with the very large mintmark (height 2,8-3 mm), large letters in the scroll and a somewhat more crudely executed bird. Then there is the novodel that closely resembles Bit 801. If we look at the illustrations for Diakov numbers 657 and 658 they refer to the same characteristics as the abovementioned Bitkin varieties.

 

However, as it has turned up, there are several specimens around (like the one above, the one that started this discussion and the recently sold specimen of Tom Willy Bakken) that do not fit to either of the two in literature published (original) types. The mintmark in these specimens is clearly of the larger type, but not really as large as in the Bitkin 802 / Diakov 658 (I´d say 2,6 - 2,8 mm), but the eagle is of the "finer type" and the letters in the scroll are small. This leaves us wonder which of the given two types do these coins resemble closest? A hint is given by the fact that the Tom Willy Bakken specimen is described as Bitkin 802 (this may, or may not, be his own opinion. I do not know).

 

Another point, I have not found (a photo of) a single specimen that would unquestionably match the illustrations numbered 801 in Bitkin and 657 in Diakov. Now, dear readers, does anyone of you? There is a suspect of a possibility that this variety as original does not exist (or exists only as novodel, which it closely resembles) and if, should so happen, ther is no Bitkin 801 doesn´t this mean that the variety with the medium sized mintmark should be called Bitkin 801 instead? If the real Bitkin 801 does exist, shouldn´t there, considering what is said, in fact be three different varieties listed and illustrated? And finally, what could their corresponding rarities be? This far everybody knows, that Bitkin 802 / Diakov 658 is not rare, but what coins do we actually mean, when we speak of type Bitkin 802?

[sigistenz]

 

Here´s another specimen. Maybe this type of the coin with the smaller scroll is not that scarce after all.

 

In fact I wonder how the theory or the two (main) varieties of this coin actually hold at all.

 

First, as I think, let us assume the varieties are distinguishable only in the reverse. There is the Bitkin 801 type with the extremely small mintmark (height 1,8 - 2 mm) resembling the one used in 1789, small letters in the scroll and a finely executed double-headed bird. Then there is the Bitkin 802 type with the very large mintmark (height 2,8-3 mm), large letters in the scroll and a somewhat more crudely executed bird. Then there is the novodel that closely resembles Bit 801. If we look at the illustrations for Diakov numbers 657 and 658 they refer to the same characteristics as the abovementioned Bitkin varieties.

 

However, as it has turned up, there are several specimens around (like the one above, the one that started this discussion and the recently sold specimen of Tom Willy Bakken) that do not fit to either of the two in literature published (original) types. The mintmark in these specimens is clearly of the larger type, but not really as large as in the Bitkin 802 / Diakov 658 (I´d say 2,6 - 2,8 mm), but the eagle is of the "finer type" and the letters in the scroll are small. This leaves us wonder which of the given two types do these coins resemble closest? A hint is given by the fact that the Tom Willy Bakken specimen is described as Bitkin 802 (this may, or may not, be his own opinion. I do not know).

 

Another point, I have not found (a photo of) a single specimen that would unquestionably match the illustrations numbered 801 in Bitkin and 657 in Diakov. Now, dear readers, does anyone of you? There is a suspect of a possibility that this variety as original does not exist (or exists only as novodel, which it closely resembles) and if, should so happen, ther is no Bitkin 801 doesn´t this mean that the variety with the medium sized mintmark should be called Bitkin 801 instead? If the real Bitkin 801 does exist, shouldn´t there, considering what is said, in fact be three different varieties listed and illustrated? And finally, what could their corresponding rarities be? This far everybody knows, that Bitkin 802 / Diakov 658 is not rare, but what coins do we actually mean, when we speak of type Bitkin 802?

Hi Nordic Gold, thank you for the interesting comments and for your picture!

Yes, there is at least one unquestionable Bitkin 801 around

(it's not mine and I do not know where it is).

From the picture it can be said that it is probably NOT a novodel as it is not perfect enough and seems to have seen circulation. Sigi

By sigistenz