alexbq2 Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I got this coin from Mike's eBay auction. Kudos to him for super fast shipment http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=190303186790 I didn't quite get his description of the coin: "RUSSIAN 1764 C M 5 KOPEK. OVERCUT DIE FROM C P M MINTMARK ?.THE C M IS AN INEXPENSIVE COIN, WHILE THE C P M IS SEVERAL HUNDRED DOLLARS. DON'T KNOW IF MM WAS ALTERED OR THE DIE REWORKED IN THE MINT..BREKKE 1997 SUPPLEMENT HAS DETAILS ON PAGE 56, FIG. 2." But now that I see the coin, it is truly puzzling. There are multiple scratches over the missing 'P' (CPM). So it looks like somebody scratched it off. But why? The 1764 SPM 5 kopeek is quite scare on its own. Why so crudely deface a valuable coin? So my question is this an CM from altered dies or CPM with the P removed from the coin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I got this coin from Mike's eBay auction. Kudos to him for super fast shipment I didn't quite get his description of the coin: "RUSSIAN 1764 C M 5 KOPEK. OVERCUT DIE FROM C P M MINTMARK ?.THE C M IS AN INEXPENSIVE COIN, WHILE THE C P M IS SEVERAL HUNDRED DOLLARS. DON'T KNOW IF MM WAS ALTERED OR THE DIE REWORKED IN THE MINT..BREKKE 1997 SUPPLEMENT HAS DETAILS ON PAGE 56, FIG. 2." But now that I see the coin, it is truly puzzling. There are multiple scratches over the missing 'P' (CPM). So it looks like somebody scratched it off. But why? The 1764 SPM 5 kopeek is quite scare on its own. Why so crudely deface a valuable coin? So my question is this an CM from altered dies or CPM with the P removed from the coin? Coins do exist where the obverse die has been changed from CPM to CM but this piece looks more like the letter Pi having been scratched out after the coin left the Mint. I cannot speak to the values (and Steve Moulding has a better data base than I do) but over the past several years I have noted the CPM and CM piataks of 1763 through 1767 and find the following: CPM – 1763: 173, 1764: 13, 1765: 29, 1766: 44, and 1767: 18 CM – 1763: 56, 1764, 19, 1765: 43, 1766: 27, and 1767: 9 I have not kept track of the MM or EM coinages. Not included above are the specimens in my own collection; I am missing only the 1767 CM. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I got this coin from Mike's eBay auction. Kudos to him for super fast shipment I didn't quite get his description of the coin: "RUSSIAN 1764 C M 5 KOPEK. OVERCUT DIE FROM C P M MINTMARK ?.THE C M IS AN INEXPENSIVE COIN, WHILE THE C P M IS SEVERAL HUNDRED DOLLARS. DON'T KNOW IF MM WAS ALTERED OR THE DIE REWORKED IN THE MINT..BREKKE 1997 SUPPLEMENT HAS DETAILS ON PAGE 56, FIG. 2." But now that I see the coin, it is truly puzzling. There are multiple scratches over the missing 'P' (CPM). So it looks like somebody scratched it off. But why? The 1764 SPM 5 kopeek is quite scare on its own. Why so crudely deface a valuable coin? So my question is this an CM from altered dies or CPM with the P removed from the coin? "may be the Sestroretsk mint have used dies from St.Petersburg mint, and tried to wipeout the sign II, from the die", -Brekke/Bakken says. Can you imagene, two hundred fifty years ago one of mint peasant scratched (wipeout) your coin so you can handle today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I agree with both of the previous posts. While on the subject, does anyone have a 1763 cM (small c) to show? (Steve?) I have a 1763 sold to me as small c, but can only find pictures of one size "C". Ill call it medium, but the literature lists both large and small 'C" for both 1763 and 1764 sorry for the thread hijack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Coins do exist where the obverse die has been changed from CPM to CM but this piecelooks more like the letter Pi having been scratched out after the coin left the Mint. I cannot speak to the values (and Steve Moulding has a better data base than I do) but over the past several years I have noted the CPM and CM piataks of 1763 through 1767 and find the following: CPM – 1763: 173, 1764: 13, 1765: 29, 1766: 44, and 1767: 18 CM – 1763: 56, 1764, 19, 1765: 43, 1766: 27, and 1767: 9 I have not kept track of the MM or EM coinages. Not included above are the specimens in my own collection; I am missing only the 1767 CM. RWJ Thank you for the reply. Something just occurred to me, and please correct me if I’m wrong. The coins of that period struck at St. Petersburg (CPM) always exhibit visible signs of the undercoin. (probably due to weak sticking). Coins struck at Sestroretsk (CM) rarely show visible signs of the undercoin. This particular coin does not show obvious undercoin traces. Can this be an indication that the coin is of Sestroretsk origin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Coins struck at Sestroretsk (CM) rarely show visible signs of the undercoin. This particular coin does not show obvious undercoin traces. Can this be an indication that the coin is of Sestroretsk origin? I think so. Does it have its color as a bronze likely as you can handle it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Thank you for the reply. Something just occurred to me, and please correct me if I’m wrong. The coins of that period struck at St. Petersburg (CPM) always exhibit visible signs of the undercoin. (probably due to weak sticking). Coins struck at Sestroretsk (CM) rarely show visible signs of the undercoin. This particular coin does not show obvious undercoin traces. Can this be an indication that the coin is of Sestroretsk origin? What you are saying is quite possible though it still appears that the letter P was scratched off outside the Mint. Some of the CPM pieces do not exhibit an undertype (i.e. over the 1762 Peter III 10 kopeck pieces) but many of course do. For CM it is very rare to see any undertype and in most cases it is fragmentary. I have seen only one piece with a significant amount of undertype showing. RWJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 I agree with both of the previous posts. While on the subject, does anyone have a 1763 cM (small c) to show? (Steve?) I have a 1763 sold to me as small c, but can only find pictures of one size "C". Ill call it medium, but the literature lists both large and small 'C" for both 1763 and 1764 sorry for the thread hijack. do you have an access to Monety i Medali auction49 lot128? C looks small to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Thank you for the reply. I think I know why you bought this one, but then I dont get why Mike missed it and put it on sale. But you need to tell me if it is true. Monety i Medali, auction 49, lot 128. Did you think that it is same coin? Estimate $1220-$1625, went unsold. Pay attention to this one: bow (bant) smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Shaver Posted May 4, 2009 Report Share Posted May 4, 2009 Hi .. I knew what the coin may or may not have been. Just clearing out some stuff. I put it up for $ .99 because I didn't want anyone to pay too much for it. I have another like it. Just don't get the logic of the alteration. By the way .. thanks to all for buying my Ebay coins. Have some expenses with my disabled son and needed cash. mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Hi .. I knew what the coin may or may not have been. Just clearing out some stuff. I put it up for $ .99 because I didn't want anyone to pay too much for it. I have another like it. Just don't get the logic of the alteration. By the way .. thanks to all for buying my Ebay coins. Have some expenses with my disabled son and needed cash. mike Hi Mike that question was for Alexbq2 I like katiny dvushki do you still have them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Hi .. I knew what the coin may or may not have been. Just clearing out some stuff. I put it up for $ .99 because I didn't want anyone to pay too much for it. I have another like it. Just don't get the logic of the alteration. By the way .. thanks to all for buying my Ebay coins. Have some expenses with my disabled son and needed cash. mike Thank you for the reply Mike. I was just curious, as to what you thought of the coin. You've seen it live, and you've had it for awhile, what did you think - CM or CPM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Hi Mikethat question was for Alexbq2 I like katiny dvushki do you still have them? Sorry, I just don't have the time to survey all auctions. I browse once in awhile, but I stick to eBay shopping. The online MIM auction has very poor pictures, here's an image from coinarchives: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Also, Adrianov's copper catalog actually lists 2 types of the CM/CPM coin. Eagle with the round tale and with "disheveled" feathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Also, Adrianov's copper catalog actually lists 2 types of the CM/CPM coin. Eagle with the round tale and with "disheveled" feathers. this message is for you: I think I know why you bought this one, but then I dont get why Mike missed it and put it on sale. But you need to tell me if it is true. Monety i Medali, auction 49, lot 128. Did you think that it is same coin? Estimate $1220-$1625, went unsold. Pay attention to this one: bow (bant) smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Shaver Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Alex .. The other one I have looks like your picture. Do we know of any other years with the CM / CPM quirk ? mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Alex .. The other one I have looks like your picture. Do we know of any other years with the CM / CPM quirk ? mike Brekke supplement lists 1763 and 1764, and Adrianov only list 1764. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Shaver Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Alex .. Checked mine .. Disheveled feathers. Poor bird. mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Moneti & Medali Sale 49, Lot 128 http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/17...03-128a-UNS.jpg http://www.russiannumismaticsociety.org/17...03-128b-UNS.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 ...over the past several years I have noted the CPM and CM piataks of 1763 through1767 and find the following: CM – 1763: 56, 1764, 19, 1765: 43, 1766: 27, and 1767: 9 I agree with the relative scarcities of the 1763-1767CM 5 Kopecks. For comparison, our observations for the series are: RWJ CM – 1763 56 1764 19 1765 43 1766 27 1767 9 SMM CM – 1763 74 1764 31 1765 70 1766 36 1767 9 These likewise do not include CM's in my collection. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 ...over the past several years I have noted the CPM and CM piataks of 1763 through1767 and find the following: CPM – 1763: 173, 1764: 13, 1765: 29, 1766: 44, and 1767: 18 I agree with the relative scarcities of the 1763-1767CPM 5 Kopecks. For comparison, our observations for the series are: RWJ CPM – 1763 173 1764 13 1765 29 1766 44 1767 18 SMM CPM – 1763 227 1764 22 1765 36 1766 66 1767 19 These likewise do not include CPM's in my collection. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted May 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 I agree with the relative scarcities of the 1763-1767CPM 5 Kopecks. For comparison, our observations for the series are: RWJ CPM – 1763 173 1764 13 1765 29 1766 44 1767 18 SMM CPM – 1763 227 1764 22 1765 36 1766 66 1767 19 These likewise do not include CPM's in my collection. Steve Hi Steve, always good to get your stats. What can you tell us as far as the 1764 CM/CPM variant? How many have you seen? Have you ever seen 1763 CM/CPM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Hi Steve, always good to get your stats. What can you tell us as far as the 1764 CM/CPM variant? How many have you seen? Have you ever seen 1763 CM/CPM? Hi, this is mine. As can be seen, all 4 coins shown are from the same dies (including the first one bought from Mike). CПM dies were altered to become CM dies. Whether this was done at the CПM mint before furnishing the dies to CM or at CM itself I cannot say. Anyway, the coins are CM coins. Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 Hi, this is mine. As can be seen, all 4 coins shown are from the same dies (including the first one bought from Mike). CПM dies were altered to become CM dies. Whether this was done at the CПM mint before furnishing the dies to CM or at CM itself I cannot say. Anyway, the coins are CM coins. Sigi i want this beaty too, such a gorgeous coin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Shaver Posted May 5, 2009 Report Share Posted May 5, 2009 http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2...4915editeda.jpg Tried image shack .. if this does not work .. please delete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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