Help with grading

[alexbq2]

Thanks everyone for your comments. Your opinions are much appreciated!

 

I think the coin is in EF, but the defect on the portrait side worries me. I think it is very likely that if I send it off to be graded, it'll come back as VF. So I'll probably refrain from showing it to NGC and keep my 30 bucks.

[Nordic gold]

I thank you for the remainder, you certainly have a point there though I would prefer to see the metal flaws due to minting technology of the day someplace else than the portrait.

 

This brings to my mind another feature from the minting technology point of view. In my experience, it seems to be almost impossible to find a detailed, sharp portrait from the last portrait type of the Empress. In all the nominals in this period 1784-96 the portrait has a low relief and together with a commonly seen weak strike the bulk of these coins even after moderate circulation show very little detail. After having been a longer time in circulation practically only the outer lines of the bust remain (this will of course happen to any coin, but it is the condition typical for the roubles offered from this period). In addition, the smaller nominals often appear to have been struck with well worn out dies resulting in a hopelessly porous surface.

 

So, this series certainly forms a great challenge for the demanding collector.

[grivna1726]

I think the coin is in EF, but the defect on the portrait side worries me. I think it is very likely that if I send it off to be graded, it'll come back as VF. So I'll probably refrain from showing it to NGC and keep my 30 bucks.

 

I don't wish to sound flippant, but what difference does it make if NGC calls it "Poor", "Gem Unc" or something in between? The coin is what it is.

 

Unless you are planning to sell the coin ASAP to someone who will pay according to what is marked on the holder, then what NGC chooses to call it is, in my opinion, of no importance.

 

It is a nice coin and while you can probably find a better one if you keep your eyes open, it will not be a matter of making a single phone call and paying the asking price. You will need to be patient, watch and wait until such a coin becomes available. There are no bags (or even rolls) of these out there overhanging the market and begging for a buyer.

[banivechi]

I don't wish to sound flippant, but what difference does it make if NGC calls it "Poor", "Gem Unc" or something in between? The coin is what it is.

 

Unless you are planning to sell the coin ASAP to someone who will pay according to what is marked on the holder, then what NGC chooses to call it is, in my opinion, of no importance.

 

It is a nice coin and while you can probably find a better one if you keep your eyes open, it will not be a matter of making a single phone call and paying the asking price. You will need to be patient, watch and wait until such a coin becomes available. There are no bags (or even rolls) of these out there overhanging the market and begging for a buyer.

Very well pointed grivna!

[alexbq2]

I don't wish to sound flippant, but what difference does it make if NGC calls it "Poor", "Gem Unc" or something in between? The coin is what it is.

 

Unless you are planning to sell the coin ASAP to someone who will pay according to what is marked on the holder, then what NGC chooses to call it is, in my opinion, of no importance.

 

It is a nice coin and while you can probably find a better one if you keep your eyes open, it will not be a matter of making a single phone call and paying the asking price. You will need to be patient, watch and wait until such a coin becomes available. There are no bags (or even rolls) of these out there overhanging the market and begging for a buyer.

 

 

Well, I agree in general that slabbing is mostly useful when trying to sell. But in some circumstances I want an official "seal of approval". As you can see from various opinions posted on this forum, most people have a different view of the quality of this coin. I am almost certain that if I present the same coin in a slab that says VF, I will get a different response to it - more critical. So I would not want to "ruin" the response to the coin or introduce doubts into the aesthetic appreciation of it, by having it in a downgraded slab. While if I get a slab that says EF, it'll make me feel better and more enthusiastic about my purchase.

 

It's like owning a panting by Monet or some such (I don't got one), it is nice to sit there and look at it from time to time, but it is also nice to know that is certified with whatever official looking paper it can possibly be certified with.

 

BTW, there is a better one (maybe) on eBay right now, the start was at 250 US:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=320210088063

[IlyaE]

I wouldn't advise to send this one to NGC anyway. The most probable result will be "your coin cannot be encapsulated" because of "Planchet Flaw" and you will just waste $20

[alexbq2]

I wouldn't advise to send this one to NGC anyway. The most probably result will be "you coin cannot be encapsulated" because of "Planchet Flaw" and you will just waste $20

 

Thanks, I thought they wouldn't like it.

[sigistenz]

I just got this 1787 20 kop coin, and it looks awfully nice. I would like to hear opinions from people who are more use to assessing a grade. I realize that I'd probably have to send it to NGC if I want to have a grade assigned, but I guess I'd like to know if it's even worth sending it. Thanks.

 

 

 

Hope these images show:)

 

http://71.196.128.196/shares/20kop1787sml.jpg

 

http://71.196.128.196/shares/20kop1787rSml.jpg

Hi, there are 3 handicaps,

firstly this coin is shown thru the plastic of a holder, 2ndly the unknown nature of the darker parts of discoloration (do by no means doctor them carelessly!!!!, the overall appearance is attracting), 3rdly the serious planchet defect.

This is a coin for an amateur. You like it or you like it not. The type was flatly struck. For that it shows very little wear - after more than 200 years. A rare condition. But I'd say it is difficult to put a grade. Personnally I'd not buy it at XF price, because the planchet defect could be accepted anywhere but not like this across the face. I'd grade it VF. But I wouldn't want to buy it unless very cheap. It would be difficult to find a buyer. You asked for opinions and this is mine. Sigi

[alexbq2]

But I wouldn't want to buy it unless very cheap.

 

I was worried about the planchet flaw, when I was buying it. But I decided that I can live with it. But thank you for clarifying the grading impact - and this goes to all who replied.

 

As far as buying things very cheap, I am a big fan of that practice, but when was the last time you could actually get anything very cheap? I got this one of eBay for about 180 US, and I thought it was reasonable considering recent prices.

[grivna1726]

...This is a coin for an amateur. You like it or you like it not. The type was flatly struck. For that it shows very little wear - after more than 200 years. A rare condition. But I'd say it is difficult to put a grade. Personnally I'd not buy it at XF price, because the planchet defect could be accepted anywhere but not like this across the face. I'd grade it VF. But I wouldn't want to buy it unless very cheap. It would be difficult to find a buyer. You asked for opinions and this is mine. Sigi

 

Sigi, don't you think you're being a bit harsh?

 

I agree the lamination is distracting located on the portrait and would be less so if it was in the fields. But I don't find it THAT bad.

 

In the Kuenker auction at the end of this month, the following coin will be offered for sale:

 

 

I think you will agree that the flaw in this coin is somewhat more serious than the one on alexbq2's 20 kopeks coin.

 

The Kuenker coin has a presale estimate of 3,000 Euros (about $4,430). I would not be at all surprised if it sold for double or triple that amount.

 

Is it also "a coin for an amateur"?

[sigistenz]

Sigi, don't you think you're being a bit harsh?

 

I agree the lamination is distracting located on the portrait and would be less so if it was in the fields. But I don't find it THAT bad.

I am sorry . I meant the word "amateur" in the sense of "lover", not in the sense of dilettante. English is not my mother tongue. I meant the word amateur in its French sense of "un amateur de musique" "la collection d'un amateur". By no means was I going to hurt anybody. I wanted to express that collector tastes are different. One likes a certain coin or not.

One prefers an XF coin/planchet lamination over a VF perfect planchet - or the other way round. Luckily tastes are different. Drushba, Sigi

[grivna1726]

I am sorry . I meant the word "amateur" in the sense of "lover", not in the sense of dilettante. English is not my mother tongue. I meant the word amateur in its French sense of "un amateur de musique" "la collection d'un amateur". By no means was I going to hurt anybody. I wanted to express that collector tastes are different. One likes a certain coin or not.

One prefers an XF coin/planchet lamination over a VF perfect planchet - or the other way round. Luckily tastes are different. Drushba, Sigi

 

Thank you for the clarification. I obviously misunderstood you.

[alexbq2]

I did not mind the amateur remark. I am an amateur in both senses of the word

[grivna1726]

I was worried about the planchet flaw, when I was buying it. But I decided that I can live with it. But thank you for clarifying the grading impact - and this goes to all who replied.

 

As far as buying things very cheap, I am a big fan of that practice, but when was the last time you could actually get anything very cheap? I got this one of eBay for about 180 US, and I thought it was reasonable considering recent prices.

 

 

 

This one just sold in the Kuenker auction (different date but basically the same type):

 

 

It brought 460 Euros (about $684, add another 15% for the juice) on a 200 Euros estimate, which is substantially more than you paid for your coin.

 

I think your coin is much more attractive.

 

Do you still think you need NGC to validate that you made a good decision when you bought your coin?

[alexbq2]

This one just sold in the Kuenker auction (different date but basically the same type):

 

 

It brought 460 Euros (about $684, add another 15% for the juice) on a 200 Euros estimate, which is substantially more than you paid for your coin.

 

I think your coin is much more attractive.

 

Do you still think you need NGC to validate that you made a good decision when you bought your coin?

 

 

Thanks for the info. These auctions are getting outrageously expensive!

 

I'm not as slab crazy as you think I've only got a couple. The idea to slab this coin has passed. I was trying to gage opinions of people who are more aware of NGC's grading practices. If I could hope to get NGC to grade this coin without a major deduction for the planchet flaw, I'd do it. Mostly to avoid people telling me that this coin is VF-, since the portrait is ruined. A sort of an anti-"nay sayer" voucher. But that's not really gonna happen.

 

But honestly 460 Euros? Isn't that a bit too much? Markov had some at way better prices as I recall. And some guy on eBay just sold one for 250 US, and nobody was bidding??? Well 1 guy was...

 

On a completely different note I just accidentally bought 3 - 1975 mint sets (I got curious). Anyone needs one or two?

[grivna1726]

But honestly 460 Euros? Isn't that a bit too much? Markov had some at way better prices as I recall. And some guy on eBay just sold one for 250 US, and nobody was bidding??? Well 1 guy was...

 

I thought auction prices were outrageous and overdue for a big fall back in 2000-2001. Was I ever wrong!

 

Now those "crazy" prices look very cheap.

 

I remember a time (not so long ago) when you could easily buy Peter I gold 2 roubles in decent collectable shape for $500-$600 each. The one with the big crack I showed earlier in this thread just sold in the Kuenker auction for 12,000 Euros (about $17,850) hammer price (15% more with the juice), which is reasonably consistent with other recent sales.

 

It seems that every time I say prices are too high, they just go higher. So now I am more cautious when it comes to expressing such opinions.

[adriarofes]

try to have a quick look on worldcoingallery or the krause libraries.

[Marina]

Hi forum people, just did not want to open NEW topic since its easy question.

 

When coin recieved from NGC graded for example MS61 with Extra sticker on it such as: "IMPORTANT MESSAGE** This NGC Coin, Certification #XXXXX has been evaluated and is a good candidate for NCS Concervation...."

 

What is that means? Is it means if I send this coin to NCS they could cleaned it and mail to NGC or?

Coin got NGC grade BTW.

 

Please help.

 

Thanks, and sorry to post this topic.

 

The Best,

M,

[banivechi]

It seems that every time I say prices are too high, they just go higher. So now I am more cautious when it comes to expressing such opinions.

It's time to think about to say: "bleah, cheap stuff!" So maybe the prices will go down

[WCO]

Hi forum people, just did not want to open NEW topic since its easy question.

 

When coin recieved from NGC graded for example MS61 with Extra sticker on it such as: "IMPORTANT MESSAGE** This NGC Coin, Certification #XXXXX has been evaluated and is a good candidate for NCS Concervation...."

 

What is that means? Is it means if I send this coin to NCS they could cleaned it and mail to NGC or?

Coin got NGC grade BTW.

 

Please help.

 

Thanks, and sorry to post this topic.

 

The Best,

M,

 

 

It means that NGC gives an advice to do conservation of the coin in the slab through NCS. Then coin may be graded again by NGC usually in the same or sometimes higher grade. Since NGC and NCS are affiliated you do not need to re-send the coin to NGC after NCS, they share the same premises. All you have to do is to submit the coin to NCS and specify on the invoice option "NGC grading after NCS conservation".

 

WCO

[Marina]

It means that NGC gives an advice to do conservation of the coin in the slab through NCS. Then coin may be graded again by NGC usually in the same or sometimes higher grade. Since NGC and NCS are affiliated you do not need to re-send the coin to NGC after NCS, they share the same premises. All you have to do is to submit the coin to NCS and specify on the invoice option "NGC grading after NCS conservation".

 

WCO

 

Thank You WCO, I was thinking the same way, but was not sure.

So All I have to do it send it (NGC Slabbed with paper-sticker) to NCS and they after Conservation will send it to NGC and NGC will mail it back to me is that correct?

 

But there is no way from NGC side to refuse to grade coin after this procedure right?

 

M,

[WCO]

Thank You WCO, I was thinking the same way, but was not sure.

So All I have to do it send it (NGC Slabbed with paper-sticker) to NCS and they after Conservation will send it to NGC and NGC will mail it back to me is that correct?

 

But there is no way from NGC side to refuse to grade coin after this procedure right?

 

M,

 

First you have to call NCS and ask them to send you NCS invoices. You'll see they are different from NGC invoices and they do have option to grade through NGC after NCS conservation (if coin is problem free). Then you just fill out NCS inoice and send it with your coin to NCS address. NGC have the right to reject the coin after conservation but in 95% cases they will slab your coin again. NCS "no grade protection" policy is here: http://www.ncscoin.com/conservation/grade_protection.asp

 

If you want to learn more how all this works I suggest you read NCS web site: http://www.ncscoin.com/conservation/index.asp on a process, services and fees, etc.

 

WCO