everycountrycoins Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Hey CoinPeople, I'm struggling with the shortcomings of the SCWC. Does anybody know the difference between France KM# 914.1 and KM# 914.4 (Vichy 50 Centime coins)? The only difference I can see in their descriptions is that one uses the word "flan" and the other uses the word "planchet," but it is my understanding that these two words are synonymous. Hoping one of you can offer clarification, Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
De Orc Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Well the difference is the dates LOL the KM# 914.1 encompass 1941, 44, 45, 46, 47 and KM# 914.4, 1942 & 43 Yes I know it is stupid as far as I can see there is no difference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabbs Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Aucune idée. Here is a dealer that lists both "914.1" and "914.4" with descriptions and images, but I don't understand the difference either. Sure, the weights are not the same, but that is probably due to "thin vs thick". http://www.avscoins.com/showcoin.php?cat=F...)&id=FR-152 (KM-914.1) http://www.avscoins.com/showcoin.php?cat=F...)&id=FR-219 (KM-914.4) Another site, but not helpful either in this particular regard ... http://www.collection-ideale-cgb.net/numer....php?numero=195 http://www.collection-ideale-cgb.net/numer....php?numero=196 And yes, "flan" is the French word for planchet, also (but less commonly) used in English AFAIK. Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topher Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Strange. Numismaster.com lists KM#914.4 as having BOTH thick and thin planchets, while KM#914.1 only has thin planchets. That certainly doesn't help clear things up at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josemartins Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 Strange. Numismaster.com lists KM#914.4 as having BOTH thick and thin planchets, while KM#914.1 only has thin planchets. That certainly doesn't help clear things up at all! In the CGB online catalog: Le Franc, there are only two versions: the "heavy" (1942) and the "light" (1943,1944). Jose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 In the Gadoury catalogue the following variants are listed for 50 Centimes Bazor 1942-1944: 1942 ESSAI (probe) 1942 Mintage 129,758,321 1942 medal struck 1943 Mintage 84,501,703 1943 medal struck 1943B (atelier Beaumont le Roger), Mintage 21,916,000 1944 Mintage 57,409,782 1944B (atelier Beaumont le Roger), Mintage 27,334,000 1944C (atelier Castelsarrasin) Mintage 27,173,356 Variants: Thin planchets, 0.3 mm instead of 0.5mm for 1942 and 1943 Paris mint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMS Posted December 4, 2007 Report Share Posted December 4, 2007 As with anything, the more precise and in depth you try to catalog things, the more complex it becomes. This is especially true in numismatics. Krause is probably one of the biggest culprits. One the one hand, continuing to further specify and itemize the varied coin varieties that exist for each type of coin, as well as listing their opinion of the retail prices for each, helps anyone in numismatics to be able to valuate items within their collection with ease. Yet, on the other hand, when one is not quite familiar with a specific series, such itemization of varieties can lead to confusion, just as with this coin. As far back as 1971, the Krause catalog of that year simply states six coins to the Vichy French State series 50c: 1942, 1943, 1943B, 1944, 1944B, and 1944C. Plain and simple! The 1971 catalog lists this particular coin all as simply V94. Easy enough! Now you know that any of those dated 50c will have the exact same design! Now, come the 21st century! Interest in numismatics has literally exploded with the advent of the internet and feeBay. More people than ever before are buying and selling coins (under some slightly false notion that there is fast, mad money to be made). Knowledge and information is needed to keep up with this new trend. Thus, we now have KM914.1, 914.2, 914.3, and 914.4 to cover what in the days of old was simply V94. Fun stuff Pretty much, as a pointer with the Krause catalog, you can pretty much expect that coins listed under a particular picture will look like what's listed. Specifically to your question, the current KM914.1 is for the normal, or thick flan, no mint mark issues while KM 914.4 is particularly for the thin flans of the same type. You will notice that the thin flans in a higher grade command a slightly higher price for 1942 but a lower price for 1943 compared to the thick flan strikes. It is because of these difference in price that Krause was led to create 914.4 on not simply keep all no mint mark coins under the same number. Enjoy your journey through numismatics as you continue to learn more and more about your coins and their history Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everycountrycoins Posted December 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 Well the difference is the dates LOL the KM# 914.1 encompass 1941, 44, 45, 46, 47 and KM# 914.4, 1942 & 43 Yes I know it is stupid as far as I can see there is no difference Not in the most recent (2008) SCWC. It lists 1942, 1943, and 1944 under 914.1. It lists 1942 and 1943 under 914.4. Thus, the problem is for 1942 and 1943. I think that 914.1 is supposed to be the thick flan variety and 914.4 is supposed to be the thin flan variety. SCWC simply obfuscated the situation by stating that "thick and thin planchets exist" in 914.1 without stating that the thin planchet variety was given its own KM#. Perhaps that's because they had that description before they broke out the thin flan variety into its own KM# (and then forgot to change the description for KM# 914.1). That's my theory, at least. I'll have to point out the situation to those folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
everycountrycoins Posted December 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 Strange. Numismaster.com lists KM#914.4 as having BOTH thick and thin planchets, while KM#914.1 only has thin planchets. That certainly doesn't help clear things up at all! Most of what can be found in numismaster.com should be identical to what is in the SCWC since essentially numismaster.com is the online version of SCWC. Hopefully changes/additions are made to numismaster.com between edition releases of SCWC, though. Check out my theory concerning the seemingly conflicting information in my response above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 When it comes to specializing, I don't recommand Krause at all - I don't see how one massive catalogue can catalogue ALL the varieties of the world, else all publishers don't even need to publish anything new I can't quite remember what is a good catalogue for French coins although I did have one in the past. I swear they had their own version of red book as that was the color of the book I had but I can't remember the title of the book It might be the catalogue that Banivechi has mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabbs Posted December 5, 2007 Report Share Posted December 5, 2007 It might be the catalogue that Banivechi has mentioned. Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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