DAJ Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 As a relative newcomer to all of this, I am interested in the take of others on toning. For grading purposes, the brighter and more lustrous, the higher the grade. But that seems more straight forward if one is looking at a Morgan silver dollar. From watching the Internet, I do not see many 19th century Russian coins with much toning at all. I like uniform toning and darker is just fine – maybe and even preferable to a bright silver coin without any color. Toning adds character, but lowers the grade. And we are talking about pretty old coins. Having said this, one cannot argue with the fine toning of this column ruble at Yale. (With thanks to one of our participants, Mr. Shneyderov.) But that is just not seen much, to say nothing of the accompanying affordability issue. http://www.library.yale.edu/slavic/coins/h...74_267.html#ob2 Here are two Heritage coins with unusual toning. http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...1732&rd=1,1 http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayIS...1730&rd=1,1 I have just place my order for the kind and gracious Mr. Julian’s book through Alexander Basok, and look forward to receiving that, incidentally. What are the thoughts of others on toning? Happy New Year and thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldcoinguy Posted January 2, 2007 Report Share Posted January 2, 2007 I guess my icon gives it away, but I am all for toning if it is natural and not artificially influenced. A pure white coin aged 150+ years is unnatural. With that said, there is an extreme to toning that goes overboard. I find some of the toning crazed US Morgan collectors to be downright ridiculous. I can comprehend a premium for naturally toned coins, but too many people get carried away. My 1841 rouble example My 1844 rouble example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 Dear DAJ, Original toning is normally part of the patina that is very welcome (by the majority of collectors0 as it protects the coin and adds to its value. However, in some cases it is extremely hard to distinguish between original natural toning and the artificial one. For that reason, some people (and grading companies) love ,so-called, "snow white" coins (for silver) or full red for copper. I personally prefer toned coins - more fun. The Oldman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 This coin was in the family for at least 50 years. After my father-in-law passed away in 2001, it actually got me started collecting Russian coins: Poltina 1913-BC The patina is rather dark, but adds rather than detracts from the coin. The patina on this rouble is not very apparent from the picture -- actually, it is gray-violet and evenly spread over the entire coin: 1854-HI rouble The trouble I have with toning, such as those depicted in the links to the Yale Library coins, is that it can cover up things like cleaning scratches, which these two coins certainly have. I don't find the toning here to be as attractive as some people might. However, better cleaned and re-toned than cleaned again (and again, and again...)! The coin in the Heritage auction also looks more like a mishandled (i.e. cleaned) proof to me ... if I sent in a Morgan dollar with that many scratches on it, I doubt that they would even grade it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 The coin in the Heritage auction also looks more like a mishandled (i.e. cleaned) proof to me ... if I sent in a Morgan dollar with that many scratches on it, I doubt that they would even grade it. I do not really see visible problem with the Heritage coin (unless I am REALLY missing something). It looks pretty decent to me (at least , on the scan). What do you say about this one? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1 The Oldman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 The first one seems like it's dipped and the second seems to be wizzed, brushed or some sort - you can see relatively parallel lines under the toning. I personally don't care much about cleaned or toned coins - as long as the details are there, then I'm for it. Sometimes when I hear buyers with nice but cleaned XF coins planning to "circulate" their coins to make it more natural look, I cringe. It's difficult to tell if the Elizabeth ruble is cleaned or not but it seems that it might be a scanned coin, which is almost impossible to tell as there isn't enough reflected light off from the coin to tell the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted January 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 I do not really see visible problem with the Heritage coin (unless I am REALLY missing something). It looks pretty decent to me (at least , on the scan). What do you say about this one? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1 The Oldman This looks to be in pretty good shape, very cleaned, with an peculiar patina. What appears in the photo as white is what would seem to me to be evidence of strong cleaning. Having said that, I have a similar coin that is outrageously cleaned, in good shape, and beautiful. Ruble of the same reign. And I paid too much for it and like it a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted January 3, 2007 Report Share Posted January 3, 2007 This looks to be in pretty good shape, very cleaned, with an peculiar patina. What appears in the photo as white is what would seem to me to be evidence of strong cleaning. Having said that, I have a similar coin that is outrageously cleaned, in good shape, and beautiful. Ruble of the same reign. And I paid too much for it and like it a lot. Well....I do not see obvious cleaning here as well...When you say "cleaning" do you really mean physical or chemical cleaning ??? The Oldman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted January 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Well....I do not see obvious cleaning here as well...When you say "cleaning" do you really mean physical or chemical cleaning ??? The Oldman Dunno. Could be wrong. But it looks so bright and white around the lettering. My coin is cleaned and looks similar, but without this light patina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 Dunno. Could be wrong. But it looks so bright and white around the lettering. My coin is cleaned and looks similar, but without this light patina. I think you are right DAJ, for me it also looks to be awfully cleaned. Possibly artificially toned to hide harsh cleaning. WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p91 Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 hey... I'm pretty new too but... i've seen some very interesting multi colored toned silver-eagles on ebay. I saw one that looked almost 24k gold... and others that were rainbow... does this detract from the value? was the gold one probably artificial? edit: sorry I just saw that this was the russian forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 I think you are right DAJ, for me it also looks to be awfully cleaned. Possibly artificially toned to hide harsh cleaning. WCO Dear friends , I believe you both are wrong to assume "awful cleaning" based on some white spots Anyway, this is my strong opinion: w/o seeing a coin personally it is very hard to say. Also, our topic here is not cleaning but toning, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 I do not really see visible problem with the Heritage coin (unless I am REALLY missing something). It looks pretty decent to me (at least , on the scan). I suppose some of the scratches could be on the slab and not on the coin. It is sometimes hard to tell without holding it in hand. But I still have the impression that this coin was cleaned and has scratches from rubbing it with a cloth or something. What do you say about this one?http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1 The Oldman I like this one much better than the Heritage coin. The toning is much more even. The brighter spots around the lettering could be from the angle of lighting which seems to have been at a great angle to the surface of the coin, which makes the devices stand out in relief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted January 4, 2007 Report Share Posted January 4, 2007 I suppose some of the scratches could be on the slab and not on the coin. It is sometimes hard to tell without holding it in hand. But I still have the impression that this coin was cleaned and has scratches from rubbing it with a cloth or something. I like this one much better than the Heritage coin. The toning is much more even. The brighter spots around the lettering could be from the angle of lighting which seems to have been at a great angle to the surface of the coin, which makes the devices stand out in relief. Dear Bobh, I agree with both of your statements 100%. We need to see it to tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAJ Posted January 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Well....I do not see obvious cleaning here as well...When you say "cleaning" do you really mean physical or chemical cleaning ??? The Oldman By the way, I have had a fine experience in dealing with this seller. FYI. Looks like the reponse is very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldman Posted January 8, 2007 Report Share Posted January 8, 2007 Looks like the reponse is very good. Dear DAJ, what do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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