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A questionable Ioann III rouble


grivna1726
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230058415867

 

This coin is supposedly one of the few surviving examples of the Ioann III rouble made from 6,000 edged but blank flans hanging around the SPB mint at the time of Anna's death in 1740.

 

GM lists 2 die variations (GM-17 & GM-18) of this rouble with Anna's edge, neither of which appear to match the coin offered.

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230058415867

 

This coin is supposedly one of the few surviving examples of the Ioann III rouble made from 6,000 edged but blank flans hanging around the SPB mint at the time of Anna's death in 1740.

 

GM lists 2 die variations (GM-17 & GM-18) of this rouble with Anna's edge, neither of which appear to match the coin offered.

 

This coin is a fake. I think it is the third one of this type on Ebay in recent memory.

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230058415867

 

This coin is supposedly one of the few surviving examples of the Ioann III rouble made from 6,000 edged but blank flans hanging around the SPB mint at the time of Anna's death in 1740.

 

GM lists 2 die variations (GM-17 & GM-18) of this rouble with Anna's edge, neither of which appear to match the coin offered.

 

 

I am new at this, so please forgive my ignorance. What is GM?

 

 

AK

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I am new at this, so please forgive my ignorance. What is GM?

AK

GM refers to the series of volumes published by Grand Duke Georgii Mikhailovich prior to the 1917 Revolution. These cover, on a ruler-by-ruler basis, the coins from 1682–1710 and 1725–1891. It was not finished due to World War I. The original edition in Russian also contains many documents concerning coinage.

 

Most collectors, due to the high cost of obtaining original volumes, opt for the Quarterman one-volume reprint of the 1916 French language edition. This work lists the coins and prints the plates but does not have the documents.

 

RWJ

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I am new at this, so please forgive my ignorance. What is GM?

AK

 

 

"GM" is the Grand Duke's corpus of Russian coins ("Собрание русских монет Великого князя Георгия Михайловича"). It is an outstanding work which has never been surpassed and forms the basis for many later works. "G.M." is his initials (for George Mihailovich).

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http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...em=230058415867

This coin is supposedly one of the few surviving examples of the Ioann III rouble made from 6,000 edged but blank flans hanging around the SPB mint at the time of Anna's death in 1740.

GM lists 2 die variations (GM-17 & GM-18) of this rouble with Anna's edge, neither of which appear to match the coin offered.

In comparing the above rouble with the following:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/1741-SILVER-IVAN-III-R...1QQcmdZViewItem

 

the two pieces appear to be struck from the same dies. Anyone else share this view?

 

RWJ

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Yes, it looks that way to me also.

 

The seller's handle seems familiar.

 

http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/negs?User=coin...irn=Received+by

 

I might disagree here. I have not yet bought from this seller, but I sold several coins to him, everything was perfect. If you look at negative feedback at toolhaus, I also don't see anything suspicious there - e.g. the money can be stolen in Ukraine, for example, I even would wonder if it had been arrived :ninja: Sometimes some idiots give negative feedback to ruin your business, so I would not give any verdicts too fast. Anyway, he has only 5 negative and 1350 positive points, the overall picture should not be distorted, IMHO.

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I might disagree here. I have not yet bought from this seller, but I sold several coins to him, everything was perfect. If you look at negative feedback at toolhaus, I also don't see anything suspicious there - e.g. the money can be stolen in Ukraine, for example, I even would wonder if it had been arrived :ninja: Sometimes some idiots give negative feedback to ruin your business, so I would not give any verdicts too fast. Anyway, he has only 5 negative and 1350 positive points, the overall picture should not be distorted, IMHO.

 

Fair enough.

 

But I still doubt the authenticity of both coins.

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Can I be an absolute fool and actually ask what makes you think it's suspicious? What aspect of the coin do you not like? Pardon me - the only examples that I have seen are overstriked examples of Ioann III ruble and never come across it as it's original stage.

 

The first thing that caught my eye is the wrong "location" mintmark, as in the letter "b" has the top curved downwards, which I don't really remember seeing any examples of.

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Can I be an absolute fool and actually ask what makes you think it's suspicious? What aspect of the coin do you not like? Pardon me - the only examples that I have seen are overstriked examples of Ioann III ruble and never come across it as it's original stage.

 

The first thing that caught my eye is the wrong "location" mintmark, as in the letter "b" has the top curved downwards, which I don't really remember seeing any examples of.

 

 

The original mintage of the Ioann III rouble with Anna's ornamented edge (rather than Ioann's normal lettered edge) was about 6,000 coins. This subtype was considered rare even in the Grand Duke's day and would reasonably be described as very rare to extremely rare today.

 

The Grand Duke shows only 2 die varieties of the Anna edge Ioann III rouble (out of a total of 16 Ioann III die varieties with СПБ mintmark). That would mean about 3,000 coins for each die pair, which certainly seems well within reasonable expectation of die life. So it seems unlikely that a third die would be required.

 

Yet the Ioann III rouble with Anna's edge offered in the linked ebay auction at the start of this thread does not match either of the 2 obverse die varieties known to and shown by the Grand Duke. An immediately obvious difference is that on both of the known genuine varieties the mintmark appears as "С:П:Б:", but on the ebay coin it looks more like "С:П:Ь" (i.e. soft sign "Ь" instead of the letter "Б" and without the final 2 dots that resemble a colon seen on the known genuine coins).

 

I suppose it is possible that a previously unknown die could have been used to strike the flans (that had been edged but not struck for Anna) with Ioann's dies, but I think that it is improbable that this is the case, particularly in view of the tiny original mintage and the fact that such a coin was unknown to the Grand Duke and, to the best of my knowledge, previously unpublished and unknown to anyone else.

 

As a result, I have concluded that the coin is almost certainly a fake.

 

Here is the ebay coin. I have merged the original pictures and converted to gif format to preserve as much detail as possible.

image8fakesp3.gif

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Many thanks for the detailed explaination Grivna - I am more than satisifed with the reasoning. :ninja: By any chances, would there be any numismatic resources that actually account of how much of these rubles were actually struck and then later overstruck?

 

 

Severin says 165,159 roubles and 60,301 poltinas were struck at СПБ mint in 1741 with Ioann's dies. Information for ММД mint production of these denominations is marked "N/A", which I believe means that the information is not available. However, a figure of 290,000 is given as the mintage of the Ioann III ММД grivennik.

 

Oddly, СПБ mint production for Elizabeth's 1741 rouble is given as 765,159 coins, a figure which is many times the number given for Ioann's rouble production. I really wonder how reliable that number is. Elizabeth seized power on December 6, 1741. To have the mint create new dies for Elizabeth, obtain approval and churn out that many rouble coins in the remaining 3 weeks of 1741 using screw press technology seems an impossible task.

 

I am unaware of any records kept of the number of Ioann III coins overstruck with Elizabeth's dies. If that information exists, I have never seen it. Ioann's coins were recalled for overstriking with harsh punishments ordered for anyone who did not comply. Even so, many people must have neglected to adhere to the order given the number of Ioann's coins which have survived until today.

 

Elizabeth's roubles overstruck on Ioann's coins seem to be restricted to 1742 & 1743. There might be overstrikes with 1744 or later dates, or 1741 dated coins, but I have not encountered them. All overstrikes I have seen on Ioann's roubles were either 1742 or 1743, so it appears that the bulk (if not all) of the overstriking was conducted during that time.

 

The 1992 edition of Uzdenikov #779 (#752 in the 1985 edition) is a 1743 overstrike on an Ioann III rouble with Anna's edge. Uzdenikov rates it "!!" - excessively rare.

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  • 2 months later...
This coin seems to be from the same origins as the coin at the start of this thread. At least the seller is (somewhat hedgingly) honest.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

 

 

I think you are correct. It does look like the same questionable dies, except that the obverse die on this one has a large bifurcated bump in the field below the colon (?) in "ІСАМОД:".

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