Timofei Posted October 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 It's a different problem though. Russian coins make their long journeys home being first purchased by Baltic dealers. This is mostly because there are NO SAFE WAYS to deliver anything to Russia by mail. You can only deliver safely with a person that flies back to Russia. Delivery to Baltic countries by mail is quite safe. Latvian, Lithuanian and Estonian dealers re-sale and deliver coins farther. St. Petersburg is not far from there, Moscow another few hours by train. Until Russia will not offer safe mail delivery, better laws for import/export of antiques (and coins in particular) it will go the same way. Baltic dealers will prosper and Russian collectors suffer. WCO Never heard about Baltic dealers importing or reselling many coins to Russia except for a few normal or casual sales. Remember that a dozen of Russian and Ukranian dealers accept bids locally in their countries and come prepared to a US or EU auction with hundreds if not thousands bids at hand. They leave no space practically for Baltic resellers. As to the shortage of material - indeed, look into Russian imperial string of Mr. Hakjak auction (the only one in Baltic countries?) I have heard from fellow collectors in Latvia that there is not much material available locally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banivechi Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Never heard about Baltic dealers importing or reselling many coins to Russia except for a few normal or casual sales. It can be a "source protection". The same thing it hapens in Romania regarding gold 20 Lei coins and 1906 serie. The local price is with 50% or more expensive than european prices. And that because maybe 90% of romanian gold coins are abroad of Romania... Romanian gold coins dealers never desconspire the sources... because the import is made ilegally. The same situation can be also in Russia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted October 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 It can be a "source protection". The same thing it hapens in Romania regarding gold 20 Lei coins and 1906 serie. The local price is with 50% or more expensive than european prices. And that because maybe 90% of romanian gold coins are abroad of Romania... Romanian gold coins dealers never desconspire the sources... because the import is made ilegally. The same situation can be also in Russia... Now it is absolutely legal to import any kind of old coins and antiquities into Russia and it is also duty free for 'personal use'. When somebody brings coins he is required to enter it into customs declaration. Sometimes at the customs they can ask for additional documents (such as expert resolution that the coin is at least 50 years old, proof of 'personal use'), but generally it is not a big deal. Postal service is another issue - it is unsafe to mail anything to Russia. But when imported personally in the luggage you can bring whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCO Posted October 21, 2006 Report Share Posted October 21, 2006 Now it is absolutely legal to import any kind of old coins and antiquities into Russia and it is also duty free for 'personal use'. When somebody brings coins he is required to enter it into customs declaration. Sometimes at the customs they can ask for additional documents (such as expert resolution that the coin is at least 50 years old, proof of 'personal use'), but generally it is not a big deal. Postal service is another issue - it is unsafe to mail anything to Russia. But when imported personally in the luggage you can bring whatever. How it looks from Russian side: - Most coins are being bought on U.S. and E.U. auctions and brought to Russia by "dozen of Russian and Ukrainian dealers"? - Most coins are being purchased by Russian collectors from direct sales dealers and auctions and sent to them by mail? - Most coins are being purchased by re-sellers from direct sales dealers and brought to Russia in person or combining mail to third countries and then delivery in person? May be percents for each kind. Also how do you think what %% of all Russian coins (sold in the U.S.) is sold on all U.S. auctions combined and what %% by direct sales dealers? WCO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 I have a feeling that Monety & Medaly as well as G&M are following the trend of offering mainstream material: that means no matter what is the condition or rarity - it should sell good for just being a 'Russian' coin. Why bother. Also I want to point out the situation with the Russian Gelos auction (came to my mind because of the discussion in other forum). Old time collectors may remember that years ago a Gelos auction was an event. We all noted that recently the quality and quantity of Gelos numismatic auctions comes to quite a degradation. This spring they auctioned a series of expensive coins - it was not very successful because the very same coins had been just sold at western auctions (Markov etc.) Ideed - not so easy to sell a coin at a substantial premium after 1-2-3 months of its first sale. Since that time I cannot recollect anything interesting except for 1 kopeck 1762 (excavated in Ekaterinburg, awfully cleaned afterwards, but still maybe the best known coin of the type). Now look at their monthly auction: http://www.gelos.ru/month/oct2006/numizmat.html Even holed coins! Consignors just do not want to submit their coins due to repayment policy (money are not paid back in due time and usually the seller must wait quite some weeks or months before getting the payment for sold coins) and the authority of Gelos expert panel is quite low - there are no people of trustful experience. Could it be that G&M, MiM and Gelos have not just suddenly decided to start offering unexciting coins in their auctions? Maybe the supply of exceptional coins (which was never that large even before the strong demand from Russia appeared in Western auctions) is drying up? It is my opinion that good Russian coins have traditionally been very closely held by their collectors and typically don't sell and resell over and over again like so many US coins do. I might be wrong, but my guess is that the really exceptional coins are in very strong hands and might not be reoffered quickly. That might explain the declining quality of Russian coins being offered in recent auctions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 I have a belief that it was the sales of Konstantine Ruble that shook the whole Russian numismatics market. When it hit the half million USD mark back in 2004 (I think) during the Markov auctions, Russian coins were gradually starting to gain in prices. Now the rumor of that was that a Japanese dealer bought it on the behalf of a Russian buyer, very likely because of the import restrictions (or more likely extreme tax and danger of it getting lost). I personally do not mind holed or jewellery damaged coins as Russian coins are getting extremely expensive. If they are holed, damaged etc and if that is what that makes them cheap, the better it is for me! It's a lot better than buying a counterfeit coin isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Now the rumor of that was that a Japanese dealer bought it on the behalf of a Russian buyer, very likely because of the import restrictions (or more likely extreme tax and danger of it getting lost). gx, I'm no expert in Russian law, but my understanding is that there is no problem importing old Russian coins into Russia, but that it is illegal to export them. I don't know how serious it is to get caught exporting old Russian coins from Russia. Maybe it is like getting a parking ticket, or maybe it is considered a serious crime with long sentences in prison. Damaged coins (like holed coins) are seldom in demand unless they are rare. There is no point in holding out for a gem uncirculated example if the coin is unknown in that condition. Counterfeits are generally worthless, although some contemporary counterfeits might be avidly sought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 22, 2006 Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 I agree with you Grivna: the law is getting quite strict on it and I am not too suprised over it. All it means is it's just bad for Russian coin collectors who are not in Russia. Here is a site that I briefly checked and indeed it does seem to be so: http://experts.about.com/q/Russian-Law-250...estrictions.htm By all means, no - I'm not looking to buy the rare coins and get them exported, (more likely impossible to ) but to complete what I started off with even if it means awful coins. I should start a thread about damaged Russian coins. And yes, counterfeits can be valuable, like the Swedish counterfeits, Russian-Dutch counterfeited ducats etc. But! Usually what you find on ebay are in general: total crap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timofei Posted October 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2006 Maybe it is like getting a parking ticket A parking ticket for 8 years in prison, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tane Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 A parking ticket for 8 years in prison, unfortunately. No wonder that they are so expensive nowadays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 No wonder that they are so expensive nowadays... 8 years is an ouch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 23, 2006 Report Share Posted October 23, 2006 A parking ticket for 8 years in prison, unfortunately. Wow! Is that the maximum sentence, or do people really get such long sentences for smuggling out a common date Catherine II piatak in indifferent condition? In other words, is that a typical prison sentence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.