extant4cell

Thank you for your evaluation, Dwight. Glad to hear you found book etc. helpful. Happy hunting for interesting coins!

Hi Sigi and Dwight, There were several mints that produced these coins (mostly by overstriking). Generally, we can devide all coins into 3 categories, by main mints' tools that were used: SPM, MM and EM. Coins produced by St.Petersburg mint tools all have 3 flags and eagles of more classical Dasier shapes. Moscow and Ekateringburg tools' coins both have 2 flags, but Moscow shape eagle (with straight left wing) easily sets Moscow tools' coins apart. There are also many eagle differences in EM coins, that are easy to notice if you study Elisabeth 5 kopecks long enough. Ones you learn to devide coins into groups, you start noticing differences in styles of letter and number shapes, and can learn to recognise coins by seeing only one side of the coin. Sigi is good at that now. Bitkin is a great basic reference, but not for identifying these coins by mints.

Counterfeiters at work :))) :

It would be interesting to see 1759 overstrike on 1 ore. As far as I know, SM stopped production of coins in 1758 (possibly due to the fire), while SPM continued overstriking into 1759 (2 kopecks), but that had nothing to do with ore overstriking. I've heard about 1 kopeck 1759 overstrike on 1 ore, but could never confirm this. Possibly this info carried on from Brekke? Question is where it got to Brekke from and are there coins to support this claim?

Very nice, Sigi, and with an early 1758 CM scroll, as far as I can see on my mobile!

Nice 1 kopeck! Thank you for sharing. This is one of the nicest kopecks: The 1 Ore coins were a little bit heavier and wider, so, just as with 2 kopecks made from 2 Ore, 1 Ore were cut down in size from ~31mm to ~29mm and re-edged. But "blanks" made for 2 kopecks from 2 Ore were better heated and treated (possibly pressed before that), that resulted in very few coins keeping any signs from the original "under-coins". I am not aware of other overstrikes of Swedish copper coins. Though, there were many speculations (started by Winkler and supported by Uzdenikov) that apart from large Avesta 5 kopecks of late 18th century (such as this one) : there were some earlier, smaller 5 kopecks made outside Russia, some possibly in Sweden. Here is one of such suspects: The regular strike 5 kopecks were so light that had only about 1 kopeck worth of copper in them. There was too much temptation inside and outside Russia to use this fact into someones own advantage by forging illegal copies of these coins for circulation. Later most of such coins were destroyed at the mints by melting them. Some stayed in circulation and later were overstruck into 2 kopecks. There were some regional types that were later ovestruck into regular Russian 2 kopeck coppers. For example this one ( Moldavo-valachsk coins 1771-1774 😞 Here is an overstruck example under number 21, among other overstrikes into 2 kopecks: The design of Denga coins from 1730 and to 1754 has been influenced by Swedish emergency coinage and others, same with 1755 kopecks and with 1762 armature coinage... There was also German influence, Dutch, etc, etc... in later years:

Dwight, Thank you for your purchase! I am glad to see that you found this book helpful. May many interesting coins come your way!

I am not much into novodel coins. Hope to hear other coinpeople opinions...

Something like this?

Happy New Year to you and all the members too!

I think you may have posted this in the wrong section...

Hi Sigi, Had another look at what you have written and at my coins. Spent a little bit of time to take better pictures of the crowns and that's what I put together to share with you and with those who may read this: It looks that the first crowns on 1757 SPM 2 kopecks already had kind of clover leaves, but more elaborated in design with empty space inside of the clover leaves. In Moscow (picture from MM 2 kopecks with nominal above the St.George) clovers became solid and distinct. On EM coins the clover features are not as clear and consistent, so I didn't put them in. Though on some EM 2 kopeck crowns I could see distinct 3 clovers. On the "ideal" pyatak (SPM tiral strike of model coins for Ekaterinburg and possibly for Moscow) there are no clovers. It resembles the imperial crown as it was pictured in 1744 publication, presented by you above. Instead of clovers there is a cross in the middle and I dare say it is repeated on the sides. The connection between crosses and crosses themselves, in combination, resemble the 3 corners' figures that later were replaced with 3 corners' clovers. This already can be recognized on the later example of SM pyatak and on MM 5 kopecks. On MM 5 kopecks, I can see 3 "normal" orientation clovers in the middle and 2 "inverted" clovers (1 on each of the sides). On EM coins 3 and smaller (in shape) 5 "normal orientation" clovers are commonly found, and 4 clovers can be found too, however rarely. Bottom line is, that there were not suppose to be any clovers on pyataks crowns, but other devices. Though, clovers they took over these devices, because it was easier to repair with clover tools and very difficult to repeat the original design with crosses. Thank you for making me look into it further, Sigi! 👍

In that case clovers represent flowers or whatever else is in the same relative positions. Décor is not as important as relative shape of the crown on pyataks. If you look through 1730 dengas, there are some eagle variants that undoubtedly prove eagle male origin. ))) These are the usual (no sex determined) eagles: and this is the one I mentioned above: Though, I believe that Russian double-headed eagle represents an idea of Moscow being established as a Third Rome, and has little to do with gender theorists... ))) Have a Merry Xmas everyone! )))

The pictures of the crowns above, as pictured by you, Sigi, were published in 1744 publication by Russian Imperial Academy of Science in Coronation of Elisaveta Petrovna . This is a fine choice of the crowns' pictures. I am not sure, if the clovers were running around the crown, but we can see 3 clear and 2 on the sides only partly. So, both 3 and 5 clover interpretations are possible. I don't have a better picture, but here is a pyataks' original crown as it appeared on the 1758 SPM produced 5 kopecks. It seams it has 3 clovers seen clearly and the side ones only partly, like on the actual picture of the imperial crown. As an off topic, in the same publication there was a picture of ceremonial rods with 4 headed eagles that I think may be interesting to everyone who only accustomed to seeing 2 headed eagles. )))

More on the original portrait and eagle of Dassier is available in this little article, though would I write it today I would not include the 3 variants of 1757 pyataks. As I understand now they were introduced much later, after the reign of Elisaveta Petrovna and are nothing but fake. http://www.numistika.com/contributed/Skobtchenko - 2014 - Portraits of Elizabeth - Sestroretsk 5 kop 1758 - Russian Eagles by Dassier and Hedlinger.pdf

Now that we have a larger database of 1760 roubles, with nearly 120 images, it is easier to analyze. I can see 4 main different eagle variants. Dasier eagle types 1, 2 and 3 with differences mainly in the extend of the right wing repair and in rarity. No major tail changes seen in these varieties and they all retain flame-like pattern inside the wings. However, type 4 - major redesign (master hub or model redesign?) of the Dasier eagle, that in my mind kills its natural fire bird lines, flame and imperfections. Basically type 4 is a new eagle for 1761, with new inside the wings' feather patterns, balanced wings and the tail and a new 5 gem crown. It's "too perfect" to be called Dasier's eagle and as well noted by Julian, it is a heraldic change - new type. Portrait side, looks like has 3 main hub variants, that I called here a, b and c, where the last letter "C" has different distance from the portrait. 1760 roubles based on eagle variants: 1) The "common" type with classic "silver" Dasier eagle (with notch in right wing), "M" looks far from the wing; I see it with portrait side made with 3 different hubs: a, b and c; 2) Rare type with balanced wings of "copper" Dasier eagle variant. Right wing has 1 additional feather to fill the gap in a notch a little. "M" looks like is close to the wing; I find it only with one portrait type "a", similar to 1a; 3) Rare type with balanced wings of "copper" Dasier eagle. Variant with 2 additional feathers added to right wing to fill the gap. "M" is touching the wing; I see it with portrait sides made with 2 different hubs: "b" and "c", similar to 1b and 1c, where the last letter "C" has different distance from the portrait. 4) New heraldic eagle - heavily modified Dasier eagle that has balanced wings and new pattern inside the wings (no longer has flame-like feathers) and I would not call it "copper" eagle as a lot has changed in this eagle's shape, not only a tail. This eagle, though based on Dasier eagle, should have it's own name as it is a major redesign of the master hub by Temofei Ivanov or another engraving master, for now it is mentioned as 1761 eagle type. Seeing with one portrait side type "c", similar to 1c and 3c. Also rare for this year. 1a) 1b) 1c) 2a) 3b) 3c) 4c) images are from: https://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/kid,12/mid,5/nid,22/types.html I corrected this post a little, making relations to 3 main types of portrait hubs "a", "b" and "c" clearer.

Hi Igor, Spot on. I know Altair from about 2000s when I was on an old Russian forum, also from CFN and SM. We don't communicate much, as our interests rarely cross over, but he knows me from my modest publications in Petersburg Collector and CFN, and he helped me to acquire his publication in 2015 Numismatika on Dasier unknown rouble. I am aware he is collecting information and images of Elizabeth roubles for a catalogue now, so I naturally decided to consult with him when I notice 1760 Dasier eagle with balanced wings, hoping to make him aware of this fact. He already knew this and in turn made me aware of JRNS №88 article, which, as I can see (Sigi, thank you so much for a copy! still no mention of the inside wings' pattern!!!), also lists 1759 "copper" eagle on a rouble, that was sold by Monety i Medali auction. It shows a part of it's right wing, but the full image of that rouble is no where to be seen, unless someone has that catalog and happy to share (again, and in case it wasn't only listed there but presented with a photo). This is an intriguing picture of a rouble to see... All I can note, that Dasier "copper" eagles from SM pyataks and the ones on 1759 and 1760 are all different a little and that for roubles there were at least 3 different hubs (muster dies) with balanced wings' Dasier eagles.

Hi Sigi, That would be wonderful! For 1761 and the late 1760 variant, it's a different eagle, that we can call copper Dasier only in general outlined shape, but it looses the flaming pattern of the feathers. Funny that many people miss that, but the flaming feathers inside the wings are the main attributes of Dasier eagle in order to call it that. In my mind I call Dasier eagle - a fire bird (of two heads). Perhaps, Dasier knew some of Russian (Slavic) folklore and made his eagle with flaming feathers on purpose. His magic definitely worked on me and I just fell in love with the original Dasier eagle (fire bird). In the folklore the magical fire bird is the object of a quest and a hero aims at getting it's tail feather, magical properties of which are not fully understood by him and often get him into trouble. You can see that on this 1760 coin, ironically, the tail feathers are already shorter... this eagle lost it's magical tail feather and the flaming wings have gone too... this Dasier eagle flames have been exhausted... ))) The original Dasier "silver" eagle and it's modified "copper" variants are full of fire:  

This is a classical known Dasier eagle with a kind of a cut in the right wing (which looks like an imperfection that gives wing some movement momentum) and "flame" patterns inside the wings: I call it a "silver" Dasier eagle, as it first appeared on roubles in 1757. In 1758 it also appears on the first SPM/SM pyataks: ...and became a standard eagle for the whole series of 5 kopecks, that was modified during pyataks' production on EM and MM to their liking. Sestroretsk kept true to the shape of a silver eagle having a benefit of SPM making not only instrument of silver roubles, but also instrument for SM pyataks. At least this was true for the first half of 1758 production year on SM, but in a second part Desier eagle appears with a "balanced" right wing on SM pyataks: I call this variant of Dasier eagle - a "copper" eagle, as it first appears on copper coins. Well, in fact, I thought that it ONLY appeared on copper SM pyataks in 1758 at that's it, as I couldn't find it on 1757, 1758 and 1759 roubles. Frankly, after looking through 1759 roubles I gave up. Today I noticed that the "copper" Dasier eagle with a balanced right wing is not only found on Sestroretsk pyataks, but also makes a very short lived appearance on silver roubles in 1760: It has a slightly different shape of the right wing compare to a "copper" Dasier eagle, so it is not the same eagle per say, however the idea is the same - to have both wings looking balanced. I found this amusing and thought to share this with you. No doubt, as I am not a specialist in silver roubles, I was not the first one to notice this. When I voiced this finding to one of the Elizabeth silver roubles respectable specialists, he kindly mentioned to me that apparently there was an article by R.W. Julian in JRNS №88 "The St. Petersburg rubles of Timofei Ivanov 1757-1761". Out of curiosity, it would be interesting to read that article. Can anyone share it with me, or where can I buy JRNS №88?

Hi Sigi, I'll try to colour code it. It is hard to see and explain it otherwise. Majority 1758 EM pyataks have wreaths' indicated by orange EM. With the top left leaf, first one on the left from the bow, having kind of another leaf poking from behind it. Sometimes it looks like a stick, sometimes like a extra line on top of it and sometimes like another small leaf. Since the model instrument was provided to EM from SPM, I would assume that in 1758 majority coins would look similar to that design (purple EM and SPM). In fact only a very small number of EM coins has this detail similar to SPM design in shape. It was very quickly converted to its own original orange EM style. Whereas I would expect to find EM coins with purple design, I never expected to find green EM coin with similar design to MM coins. You can see that on MM design the lower leaf moves in front of the top one, and amazingly the EM (green) design is trying to replicate that in shape of lines! It seams that someone was moved from Moscow mint to Ekaterinburg to assist with coin production and brought Moscow idea with them on how the wreath should look like. I am sure it was a short lived expression of Moscow influence, but there it is, right in your eyes... I wouldn't call it a new type, or anything like that, but it is certainly a curious variant.

Here is an interesting Dasier eagle EM coin. I don't believe I've ever seen this on EM pyataks. Just noticed it. This design (see where the arrow points at) is common for MM pyataks and on early SM (though different shape), but not on EM. Very strange to see this on EM coin... This is a really strange EM pyatak that has bedazzled me: Here is MM to compare to and it fits it perfectly: and Sestroretsk (late and early): and trial strike SMP: Looks like there were some dies' or master dies' repair masters at Ekaterinburg mint, that copied Moscow cipher design wreath in that detail... Very strange. And I thought I've seen it all by now... it is almost as strange as finding Elizabeth pyatak with "closed" crown, instead of the usual oval "opened" base...

Though, it is not really active, but the moderators would probably suggest to sell in this section http://www.coinpeople.com/forum/49-auction-forum/ sharing a link in the specialized forum like we have here, in Russian coins forum. Sometimes coin can be shown in the forum here and after we discuss it the topic starter may mention that they are willing to part with the coin, you can contact them in personal message and make an offer, but it is not something we do often. This forum is really mostly for discussing the coins... and the above link is where the auction should be happening. May be you can breath some life into the auction? Good luck!

Thanks for sharing your EM pyataks, Sigi! It is indeed a fluffy eagle (by the wide triple-ended feathers' design), on the top. And a very nice Dasier eagle under it, that retained most features of the SPM "ideal" 5 kopecks from the SPM trial strike (I showed it before), on the eagle side. The cipher side already has distinctive EM design features.

Morning everyone! Thank you for sharing part of your collection, Josh. I quickly went over the coins, and though, they are not high grade, where one can see a lot of helpful attributes, I gave it my best short at identifying their mints: SPM-57 MM-58 EM-59 SPM-57 MM-58 EM-61 EM - 57 EM-58 EM-62

Agree with Sigi. Speaking of ugly MM coins... I didn't have a chance to get this one and it went to someone else, but it certainly made my mouth watery... ))) and my jaw dropping to the floor... I am sure you will appreciate it's beauty...