sigistenz

For the first time I did buy a slabbed coin - and only because the price was right - unslabbed ot not.

Of course I'd crack the slab instantly to free the coin for my trays. I hate slabs and would never pay for any. In my opinion they are doing harm to my hobby, at least as I understand my hobby. Nice coins are diasppearing from the market, only to get way too expensive by slabbing, getting out of reach. I do not pay for anybody's opinion of grade. I like a coin or I don't. But of course, tastes are different, tastes change, I am an oldtimer.

For me a slabbed coin is like a woman behind a window pane...

Sigi

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Well, thank you all for your consideration and advice. I really appreciate it.

Maybe it would be best to forget and get friends with the coin rather than to empoison my days with a lenghthy procedure of uncertain outcome. I'll have to sleep over this.

Thank you again,

Sigi

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The seller had offered this coin unslabbed on eBay earlier this year. As the damage showed clearly, the coin did not sell. The seller had then slab the coin. The slabbers graded it "XF details, hairlines" and squeezed it into a tight holder concealing the serious damage.

I do not like what the seller did but I cannot blame him. He showed the actual pictures of the slabbed coin. He hides behind that.

I got what I had seen. And I cannot return the item intact (slab cracked).

But I do not understand how a grading company with some standing is capable to issue such faulty and deceptive slab. In some earlier thread someone wrote that you can maybe order the grade to be attributed?

Jokingly, as I thought then.

Sigi

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I bought this eBay coin, my first slabbed coin, I do not pay for slabs but $350 looked like a fair price, slabbed or not.

Watch the offer below.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141738611554?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fsch%2FEmpire-up-to-1917-%2F32477%2Fi.html%3F_sc%3D1%26_sop%3D10%26_sticky%3D1%26_catref%3D1%26_trkparms%3D65%25253A12%25257C66%25253A2%25257C39%25253A1%25257C72%25253A5846%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D141738611554%26_rdc%3D1

In hand the slabbed coin still looked nice. No hairlines visible despite the description on the slab.

I consulted youtube how to crack the slab and did so accordingly, gently, not harming the coin.

Out came the coin below. The serious damage had been hidden by the slabbing. A ruined coin became XF - DETAILS - SURFACE HAIRLINES.

There are no hairlines at all but the destruction instead. The coin is too scarce to have been confounded with another one lying next to it on the packing table. The slabbers were not in their early days - the seller had the coin slabbed earlier this year. The coin is the one they slabbed as can be verified by their ID# and picture.

What to do? What can I do?

Sigi

http://imageshack.com/a/img673/7910/Tq726u.jpg

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Hm, quite interesting. This would mean that you got two very rare variants of the rare 2kop1793EM. They all look genuine. I had read Uzdennikov's theory, too, but I cannot quite believe it. Imagine how difficult and time consuming it would be to fiddle with light and heavy coins in order to obtain the proper weight of a batch of, say, 100 rubles (= 5000 coins). Maybe they just mistakenly punched the 2 kopek planchets out of a wrong sheet of copper. Shit happens - even in our days.

Anyway, you got an interesting set of 3, probably the only one in the West - congratulations.

And thank you for sharing. (I love the heavy one on the left )

Sigi

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Cool! Very nice!

Why could it happen and how? The die blows are pretty apart from each other.

Sigi

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That would be about 40% overweight or underweight - pretty strange. As it is quite calm in the forum - would you let us see the pictures?

I don't have any of the 2 kopeks now and the few I handled over the years appeared normal as to weight.

Sigi

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1915 Russia was in war with Germany. СПБ (St.Petersburg) looked too German and was omitted for that.

At least this is what I remember having read somewhere.

Sigi

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Edging machine - I recall a different picture of an earlier phase of edging - guy pushing an upper bar. Will have to search - I think it was in in the Journal of the Russian Numismatic Society

Sigi

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Hi Eugene, your conclusions look pretty convincing.

Thinking about muled coins (one side old design the other side new design) which can be seen at EM with Catherine II and Alexander quite often - KM must have been careful to avoid mules. As we know the 5 kopek design changed in 1788 with both EM and KM mints. There are 2 1788EM mules of old and new sides - but none with KM. Maybe the early 1802KM dies were still at hand but just carefully avoided.

As to the edge of my #6 (5kop1802KM later type) it looks indeed like being done twice ("overedged" in the sense of "overstruck"). But I do not believe in that. Why should that innecessary job have been done? Do you know the edging tool of the time? It was of French origin and name, I have it depicted somewhere in my library. Will search for the picture if necessary. As the overedging only shows at two areas of the edge at exactly opposite positions I think the "overedge" effect is due to that tool.

It would be helpful to research in mint archives (if they still exist). I wonder what Russian forums would have to say to your conclusions.

Thank you for widening my horizon once again!

Best, Sigi

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Hi Eugene, I edited my previous mail adding the data you require. See there.

Below see two scans of the edges, taken at two different angles, they are:-

1 - 5kop1796KM

2 - 5kop1802EM

3 - 5kop1803EM 1st type

4 - 5kop1803EM 2nd type

5 - 5kop1802KM 1st type

6 - 5kop1802KM 2nd type

The coins are in more or less circulated condition - you will be aware that the crests of the edge reeding wear off, get more or less flatter, looking broader then.

Always glad to assist, as I am very eager to learn the outcome of your investigation

Best, Sigi

http://imageshack.com/a/img910/1453/XWzzqA.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img537/2753/Dud1jO.jpg

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Eugene, I measured on my coins:

5kop1796KM Ø 42mm

5kop1802EM Ø 42mm inner circle 29mm

5kop1803EM 1st type Ø 43mm inner circle 29mm (added Aug.1)

5kop1803EM 2nd typeØ 42mm inner circle 29mm (added Aug.1)

5kop1802KM 1st type Ø 42mm inner circle 29mm

5kop1802KM 2nd typeØ 43mm inner circle 35,5mm

I am not quite sure what else you want me to compare, would be glad to, very interesting stuff!

Best, Sigi

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The Soviets started out with the same standard as the Tsar's in order to establish confidence. In the 20s they minted copper and silver coins with their own design but metal/size/denomination as before. They also minted a gold coin, the Chervonets.

Like many other countries they changed to copper-nickel later on.

Sigi

Hi Eugene, a very interesting topic you brought up! I appreciate your investigating mind!

With EM we see quite some mules (mixed up dies, early die on one side, later die on the other side). The EM 1802 eagle side comes muled in 1803, 1804 and 1805. But there are no KM mules known with the 1802KM early type eagle. It is thus quite thinkable that the KM early type and later type were minted at different places with no possibility to mix up the dies.

I'll watch my collection soon and will submit the data you suggested.

Best, Sigi

Thank you Eugene, I feel honored. I wonder why they changed from the 1st (in my opinion nicer) type. And why so many of the 1st type survive in high grades. Were they held back by the mint because of the 2nd type?

BTW at the time being I came to like nice circulated coins

For me they are good enough as I consider slight wear an indicator of authenticy.

Sigi

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Fake, fake, fake. Take the "E.M." alone.

Sigi

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i have been checking out Siberian 10 kopeck coins for a while and am flumoxed by how to determine the grade of the coin. Of course these are pretty prmitive and very old.

 

And i understand that some coins are more scarce than other and very rare coins have letter edges. But i will see a coin that looks pretty nice and the planchet is a mess or there is a slash across the coin and it is selling for $500. And of course the legibility on the obverse is big. And the surface not being porous.

 

Then i read different things about the copper composition contained in the coins. Does that have something to do with the huge size of the 10K? It is my understaning that regular coinage did not reach Siberia in sufficient quanities.

 

So if anyone wants to address these things and even show some favorites for examples, that would be fun. Best - Dwight

 

 

Hi Dwight, I have been after them for more than 40 years

I do not care for other peoples' opinion on the grade of a coin. For me eye appeal counts. A slabber's "AU" may be an unpleasant coin and it even may be fake as has been demonstrated in this forum. Beware of fakes.The nicer a coin looks the greater the danger. The Russian company Montny Dwor shows a compilation of coin auctions of the recent years, see link below. But even there appear (very few) undetected fakes. The great majority are genuine, you can see there what the coins should look like. Enjoy, Sigi

http://www.m-dv.ru/monety-rossii-1700-1917/kid,14/mid,18/nid,29/types.html

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Thank you Eugene, some very interesting pictures of rare coins .

Sigi

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My guess would be just the huge mintage volume for these coins. This mule was probably unintentional, just a necessity to keep the production running. A 1770 type die broke, an old die was pulled of the shelf to keep things going.

Yes, I also think that's why.

Sigi

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First time I find it mentioned is in Diakov (2003), described as "unpublished variant" (R4) "private collection". Diakov's picture shows the same dies as seen with Mike's coin, but the coins are not the same.

Sigi

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This is the 1763 EM eagle, very rare for 1774 - Bitkin 623 (R2). The Wolmar catalog Jan.2015 edition quotes it VF $900, XF $3800 (for comparison: the normal 1774 is quoted there in VF $5 and in XF $38).

The coin is honest looking and pretty attractive. Congratulations!

The first one I remember having seen.

Sigi

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Sigi,

You can do with the coin image as you wish. No worries there.

Sigi,

You can do with the coin image as you wish. No worries there.

Thank you Igor

Here is a close up of the date. No trace of an overdate IMHO.

Sigi

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Hi Josh, this is Igor's coin, not mine and the image was Igor's, too. I already felt uneasy about doing the close up to reveal the star.

As 1763 was the first date with Catherine's cipher it is unlikely to find a 1763/2 overdate. Of course with Russian coins you never know. But Igor's coin does not look like an overdate, either.

Sigi

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Right. The coin was struck over a 10kop1762 of which that one star is still visible.

Sigi

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It is an overstrike, very powerful, merely visible. Note the 1762 star in the scroll.

Sigi