sigistenz

M.E.DIAKOV wrote in his 2002 RUSSIAN COINS OF ELIZABETH I AND PETER III:

"According to a 1757 Sestroretsk temporary mint report, the mint struck 5080000 5-kopeck-pieces, but no examples are known to exist."

Has there been found further information about the matter in the meantime?

Sigi

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Sorry, I cannot show any overdates of the period - I do not have any in my collection. Will be on the lookout.

Sigi

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Great! Thank you

Sigi

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Ah, before I forget - Eugene said the new dies were made in EM and sent to СПМ for approval. I had expected new dies being made in СПМ?

Eugene, lucky you.That is a great coin you hunted down, it is much much better than mine. It is undoubtedly the 1788/7 overdate. The die of the monogram side looks like mine (see the top crown), except for the date ciphers. They seem to have been punched into the die with a different set of punches. The eagle side is slightly different, your left eagle has no tongue, the inner side of your left wing looks different from mine. Look at the NY sale picture above and at Diakov's catalog entry - no two of all the coins seen here are alike. Funny, isn't it? Congratulations to your outstanding coin

Sigi

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Probably because the new dies were introduced during the current year. In our case that must have happened just before the end of the 1787 date. (I think I read somewhere that the mint year did not correspond to the calendar year).

Sigi

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The 2003 DIAKOV, RUSSIAN COINS OF CATHERINE II listed a hitherto unknown coin, a 5 kopek 1787EM struck from dies which appeared only the year later (from1788 on). I rubbed ,my eyes: how come that this coin had never been mentioned in any of the earlier reference books? A new discovery? Most unlikely, very suspicious.... See the DIAKOV entry copied below

But then the 2nd edition of Bitkin (also 2003) listed it, too, as #638a (R4) without picturing it, Could the coin be true, after all?

Then in the 2014 NY sale one of them appeared in photograpy, fetched $7'000, see m-dv's picture of it below

My doubts nearly disappeared but then I found proof that 1787 dies of the new design had existed - the coin below. It clearly is an 1787 overdated to 1788. Had there been dies of the 1787 new design there would have been at least a few experimental strikes.

The coin is of modest grade but I am proud to have my 1787EM(new dies) even though overdated 1788.

Sigi

I regret very much that there are no more posts here in the forum. Of course it is my fault, too

Will put something the next days,

Let's give it a new start altogether

Sigi

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That is indeed most exceptional, the eagle fits perfectly in the cipher. Great coin - congrats!

Sigi

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I'd also agree to old novodels. Did you notice the almost illisible "UNIVERSITÄT GÖTTINGEN" overlaying the pictures? Looks like that German university owns the coins?

Sigi

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Hi Eugene, your wonderful book arrived today - thank you! It will however take me a while to peruse it - a challenge to improve my Russian

Best, Sigi

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Now it's clear to me: As the Swedish 2: ÖR were too large to be overstruck into 2 kopeks they were reduced in width. By that the 2: being close to the rim was lost - cut away. That explains why there remains only the host coin's Ö of 2: ÖR on your 2 kopek.

An extraordinary find - my most sincere congratulations

And thank you for sharing.

Sigi

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Hi Eugene, very interesting indeed but with all respect I must admit that from the pictures alone I am not quite convinced. I can imagine the Ö from ÖR but there should be the "2:" preceding it . That is all I see from the pictures. Are there more features visible? Does the weight correspond? Is the Swedish coin also yours? Its picture looks larger than the 2 kopek.. What about the edges? - I don't know what the Swedish edge should look like. Are there any traces of an overedge?

Let us know more, Sigi

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This is copper - the Russians did not strike bronze coins. The discoloration looks like verdigris.

Sigi

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Hi Eugene, I must have your book . How much is it including postage? Will send my address by PM.

Thank you, best, Sigi

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Great coins, as perfect as can be. Beautiful color, not doctored. You must have excellent sources. Your (SM) 5kop1758 is from the same dies as mine but much nicer. Mine has a plugged hole not at the top like for a hanger but sideways at 9 (or 3) o'clock which looks contemporary as it is of the same color (=same metal alloy). I do not have an explanation for that - do you? See link

http://www.sigistenz.com/5kop1758--vermutl.Sestror.--.jpg

Regards, Sigi

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Thank you very much for the flowers although you are exaggerating.

Unfortunately I am not happy with less than XF and as it comes to eye appeal nearly all of the Elizabeth 5 kopeks look pretty ugly. The nice ones are rare. And sadly enough people with deep pockets like them, too......

Sigi

Ah, I remember now that you wrote about the banner a while ago. As I thought it concerned the 5 kopek coins, I did not think about the smaller denominations. You got a very deep insight into the matter!

Thank you for sharing.

Sigi

Hi Eugene, as a collector of the 5 kopek size coppers, I do not quite feel the thrill. What makes this coin so rare?

Sigi

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Some bargain hunter got hooked - coin was sold.

Sigi

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Hi everybody, see here a sensational eBay offer, an unpublished variant of the 5kop1804EM. http://www.ebay.com/itm/A10-Russland-5-Kopeken-1804-AM-Cu-Bronze-44mm-53g-ss-vzgl-Erhaltung-Raritat-/191936735630?hash=item2cb052298e:g:B0wAAOSwA3tXoJjN

The design of both sides of the type was changed in 1803. In that year we see both the early design and the later design, as well as mules of both. Rare specimens with the early eagle appear even for 1804 and 1805. But the early date side has only been seen for 1802 and 1803 - as of yet. The 1804EM eBay coin however is of the early type both sides. And at a bargain "buy it now" price. At first glance the coin looks tempting, nice color. But...... the sharp rim does not quite match with the well worn other features. "Authenticity guaranteed" but seller refuses returns............

Sigi

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This is just great, Eugene, thank you very much. I feel encouraged to go on with learning Russian ....

Sigi

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Your coin is a clear overdate 1798/7. It figures in the 1997 Brekke/Bakken update of the 1977 Brekke book and is valued ∙ , which means "scarce". Congrats, this is not a common coin.

Sigi

∙

∙

∙

Thank you for the feedback, Hisa. It's become pretty calm in the forum.

Sigi

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In 1811 two mintmasters were busy in СПБ:

Михаил Клейнер (1808-1811) and Павел Ступицын (1810-1825).

In my opinion we see here recut mintmaster initials, probably ПС over МК.

Very interesting coin.

Sigi

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