10 roubles 1902. 1925 Restrike

[Loyal Citizen]

Pretty interesting information was attached to an ordinary otherwise lot 457 ( 10 roubles 1902) at the M&M auction completed in Moscow today.

 

http://www.numismat.ru/au.shtml?au=64&...m=10&page=4

 

Lot description reads:

"10 рублей 1902 года, АГ-АР. Буквы «АР» в гуртовой надписи меньшего размера, измененного рисунка. Буква «Р» перегравирована из буквы «Г». Золото, 8,59 г. Сохранность очень хорошая, штемпельный блеск. Severin# 577. Уздеников# 0343. Биткин# 10. Казаков# 251.

Монеты с таким гуртовым оформлением чеканились на Петроградском монетном дворе в 1925 году. Они предназначались для оплаты внешнеторговых операций советского правительства. Всего на сохранившемся старом штемпельном оборудовании было отчеканено «царских» золотых монет с номиналами 5 и 10 рублей на сумму 25,1 миллиона рублей."

 

Rough English translation:

" 10 roubles 1902, AG-AP. Edge lettering is of a smaller size and changed from "AG" to "AP" by means of regraving "G" to "P". Gold, 8.59 g.

Very fine condition, luster. Severin #577. Uzdenikov #0343. Bitkin #10. Kazakov #251.

 

Coins with such edge lettering were minted by the Petrograd Mint (St. Petersburg) in 1925. They were used for international trade payment by Soviet Government. Total amount of the imperial 5 and 10 gold roubles minted at that time is 25,100,000 roubles."

 

I find this information pretty intersting.

[alexbq2]

Pretty interesting information was attached to an ordinary otherwise lot 457 ( 10 roubles 1902) at the M&M auction completed in Moscow today.

 

http://www.numismat.ru/au.shtml?au=64&...m=10&page=4

 

Lot description reads:

"10 рублей 1902 года, АГ-АР. Буквы «АР» в гуртовой надписи меньшего размера, измененного рисунка. Буква «Р» перегравирована из буквы «Г». Золото, 8,59 г. Сохранность очень хорошая, штемпельный блеск. Severin# 577. Уздеников# 0343. Биткин# 10. Казаков# 251.

Монеты с таким гуртовым оформлением чеканились на Петроградском монетном дворе в 1925 году. Они предназначались для оплаты внешнеторговых операций советского правительства. Всего на сохранившемся старом штемпельном оборудовании было отчеканено «царских» золотых монет с номиналами 5 и 10 рублей на сумму 25,1 миллиона рублей."

 

Rough English translation:

" 10 roubles 1902, AG-AP. Edge lettering is of a smaller size and changed from "AG" to "AP" by means of regraving "G" to "P". Gold, 8.59 g.

Very fine condition, luster. Severin #577. Uzdenikov #0343. Bitkin #10. Kazakov #251.

 

Coins with such edge lettering were minted by the Petrograd Mint (St. Petersburg) in 1925. They were used for international trade payment by Soviet Government. Total amount of the imperial 5 and 10 gold roubles minted at that time is 25,100,000 roubles."

 

I find this information pretty intersting.

 

Fascinating! Thanks for sharing!!!

[bobh]

Pretty interesting information was attached to an ordinary otherwise lot 457 ( 10 roubles 1902) at the M&M auction completed in Moscow today.

 

http://www.numismat.ru/au.shtml?au=64&...m=10&page=4

 

Lot description reads:

"10 рублей 1902 года, АГ-АР. Буквы «АР» в гуртовой надписи меньшего размера, измененного рисунка. Буква «Р» перегравирована из буквы «Г». Золото, 8,59 г. Сохранность очень хорошая, штемпельный блеск. Severin# 577. Уздеников# 0343. Биткин# 10. Казаков# 251.

Монеты с таким гуртовым оформлением чеканились на Петроградском монетном дворе в 1925 году. Они предназначались для оплаты внешнеторговых операций советского правительства. Всего на сохранившемся старом штемпельном оборудовании было отчеканено «царских» золотых монет с номиналами 5 и 10 рублей на сумму 25,1 миллиона рублей."

 

Rough English translation:

" 10 roubles 1902, AG-AP. Edge lettering is of a smaller size and changed from "AG" to "AP" by means of regraving "G" to "P". Gold, 8.59 g.

Very fine condition, luster. Severin #577. Uzdenikov #0343. Bitkin #10. Kazakov #251.

 

Coins with such edge lettering were minted by the Petrograd Mint (St. Petersburg) in 1925. They were used for international trade payment by Soviet Government. Total amount of the imperial 5 and 10 gold roubles minted at that time is 25,100,000 roubles."

 

I find this information pretty intersting.

Very interesting indeed!

Now the question remains as to whether or not this edging device (with "AP") was used for 1899 ten rouble coins which were also minted during that period (according to Bitkin) -- and if so, how much those coins weighed? At least the 1902 coin has the correct weight and mintmaster for that year. If I understand the Russian text correctly, it says that "the letters AP" are smaller in size -- the rest of the edge letters would then be the same as usual? Too bad that there is no picture of the edge here.

 

Thanks for sharing this valuable information!

[Loyal Citizen]

.... If I understand the Russian text correctly, it says that "the letters AP" are smaller in size -- the rest of the edge letters would then be the same as usual? ...

 

Well, from the original Russian text it seems like ALL edge letters are of a smaller size.

[one-kuna]

If I understand the Russian text correctly, it says that "the letters AP" are smaller in size -- the rest of the edge letters would then be the same as usual?

surprisely, you understood russian correctly: letters "AP" are of small size (not the rest)

[Maya]

Very interesting indeed!

Now the question remains as to whether or not this edging device (with "AP") was used for 1899 ten rouble coins which were also minted during that period (according to Bitkin)

 

If that is the case, I wonder if it would explain the number of 1899 10 rouble coins with initials "AP" that we have seen on ebay in the last few years, and that we have always considered to be fakes.

What would then be the status of these coins? Would they be considered fakes, novodels, or..?

 

Bobh, did you by any chance keep copies of the pictures from the old threads that showed the "AP" edge on the coins we discussed? It might be interesting to see if the lettering there looks smaller than on the "AG" coins.

[one-kuna]

we (?) have seen on ebay in the last few years (?), and that we (?) have always considered to be fakes (?).

[Loyal Citizen]

I wonder where this information came from. Please note precise volume numbers, 5 and 10 rubles on the list and 1902 year. This combination is somewhat new IMHO.

 

We can speculate as long as we want but w/o source of this data we are just 'making waves in the cup of coffee'.

[WCO]

IMHO. I wish I could see documents about those 1902-AR/AG 10 Rub. Until that I assume it was just a speculation by MiM.

 

All 1899-AP 10 Rubles are fakes. Well made fakes and look like real coins: luster, weight, details, but fakes. Now there are fake 1911 5 Rubles of this quality. What's next?

 

WCO

[bobh]

If that is the case, I wonder if it would explain the number of 1899 10 rouble coins with initials "AP" that we have seen on ebay in the last few years, and that we have always considered to be fakes.

What would then be the status of these coins? Would they be considered fakes, novodels, or..?

 

Bobh, did you by any chance keep copies of the pictures from the old threads that showed the "AP" edge on the coins we discussed? It might be interesting to see if the lettering there looks smaller than on the "AG" coins.

Here is the old thread (pictures are still there):

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=7903

[one-kuna]

This thread actually missed that

M&M auction listed two gold coins with same explanation of 1925 Petrograd mint re-strike,

and an additional two VERY IMPORTANT different detailes:

*lot 450

10 рублей 1901 года, АГ-АР. Лиц. ст.: широкий кант, маленькая голова. Буквы «АР» в гуртовой надписи меньшего размера, измененного рисунка. Буква «Р» перегравирована из буквы «Г». Золото, 8,59 г. Сохранность очень хорошая, штемпельный блеск. Severin# 575. Уздеников# 0340. Биткин# 9. Казаков# нет.

 

**lot 457

10 рублей 1902 года, АГ-АР. Буквы «АР» в гуртовой надписи меньшего размера, измененного рисунка. Буква «Р» перегравирована из буквы «Г». Золото, 8,59 г. Сохранность очень хорошая, штемпельный блеск. Severin# 577. Уздеников# 0343. Биткин# 10. Казаков# 251.

 

The piece from 1902 does not have a description regarding a wide rim and small head (red highlight) but 1901's does.

Both have mentioned that letter "P" re-engraved from 'G" (violet highlight); the 1901's one is not listed in Kazakov catalog (green highlight)

[bobh]

This thread actually missed that

M&M auction listed two gold coins with same explanation of 1925 Petrograd mint re-strike,

and an additional two VERY IMPORTANT different detailes:

*lot 450

10 рублей 1901 года, АГ-АР. Лиц. ст.: широкий кант, маленькая голова. Буквы «АР» в гуртовой надписи меньшего размера, измененного рисунка. Буква «Р» перегравирована из буквы «Г». Золото, 8,59 г. Сохранность очень хорошая, штемпельный блеск. Severin# 575. Уздеников# 0340. Биткин# 9. Казаков# нет.

 

**lot 457

10 рублей 1902 года, АГ-АР. Буквы «АР» в гуртовой надписи меньшего размера, измененного рисунка. Буква «Р» перегравирована из буквы «Г». Золото, 8,59 г. Сохранность очень хорошая, штемпельный блеск. Severin# 577. Уздеников# 0343. Биткин# 10. Казаков# 251.

 

The piece from 1902 does not have a description regarding a wide rim and small head (red highlight) but 1901's does.

Both have mentioned that letter "P" re-engraved from 'G" (violet highlight); the 1901's one is not listed in Kazakov catalog (green highlight)

Thanks, one-kuna!

Interesting to me is that in both cases, the weight is correct (8.6 grams and not 8.4 as with the fake 1899 coin).

[one-kuna]

Thanks, one-kuna!

Interesting to me is that in both cases, the weight is correct (8.6 grams and not 8.4 as with the fake 1899 coin).

you are welcome,

 

I just recalled that:

once I have mentioned regarding Gleizer work "Soviet chervonets" few weeks/month ago on this forum

and its mintage of 10 gold rubles used old dies back to 1925 to break-through the blokade Russian Government had,

this fact immediately was picked up in Russia and used in MiM auction (this site is heavy readable world-wide including Russia);

this interesting thread is not new at all,

a fact that i do not remember everything but once mentioned - Gleizer book became more useful

[Maya]

I was having a problem with my computer and could not access the internet long enough to finish a post.

 

Thank you Bobh for the link. I couldn't find it, but then I didn't go back far enough.

 

Thank you WCO for your answer about authenticity. I thought perhaps some of the 1899 coins may have been part of the 1925 re-strike. I remembered that you had mentioned previously that the 1899 and 1911 10 rouble coins had been re-struck in the 1920's.

 

Some of the 1899 coins on ebay were dangerously good, and if not for the "AP" it would have been very difficult to identify them as fakes.

[one-kuna]

I found interesting this: широкий кант, маленькая голова.

[Loyal Citizen]

I was having a problem with my computer and could not access the internet long enough to finish a post.

 

Thank you Bobh for the link. I couldn't find it, but then I didn't go back far enough.

 

Thank you WCO for your answer about authenticity. I thought perhaps some of the 1899 coins may have been part of the 1925 re-strike. I remembered that you had mentioned previously that the 1899 and 1911 10 rouble coins had been re-struck in the 1920's.

 

Some of the 1899 coins on ebay were dangerously good, and if not for the "AP" it would have been very difficult to identify them as fakes.

Restriking does not make them fakes IMHO. This is just a different chapter in Russian numismatics.

[grivna1726]

Restriking does not make them fakes IMHO. This is just a different chapter in Russian numismatics.

That is a very good point.

 

Less clear (at least, to me) are the secretly made Russian government copies of the Dutch ducat. They were not made with the knowledge or approval of the Dutch government. Another example would be British copies of French gold coins which were made to be accepted by local populations in the campaign against Napoleon.

 

To the best of my knowledge, both the Russian and British copies were of proper gold content, so I suppose they weren't really counterfeits (for the purpose of cheating the recipient), although they also weren't what they appeared to be.

[one-kuna]

"re-strike" is more correct term of this discussion than "copies"

[Loyal Citizen]

...Less clear (at least, to me) are the secretly made Russian government copies of the Dutch ducat. They were not made with the knowledge or approval of the Dutch government....

 

The Russian "Dutch" ducats were minted until the official Dutch government protest was submitted. You are correct, this is very different from the Soviet government restrikes of the late 1920-s. Even the reasons for minting were absolutely different.

[IgorS]

I read in the recent issue of Numismatist that US was planning to strike "pieces of 8", but finally came up with trade dollar instead. This was to accomodate trade with China demands.

[bobh]

That is a very good point.

 

Less clear (at least, to me) are the secretly made Russian government copies of the Dutch ducat. They were not made with the knowledge or approval of the Dutch government. Another example would be British copies of French gold coins which were made to be accepted by local populations in the campaign against Napoleon.

 

To the best of my knowledge, both the Russian and British copies were of proper gold content, so I suppose they weren't really counterfeits (for the purpose of cheating the recipient), although they also weren't what they appeared to be.

I seem to recall that there were contemporary counterfeits of French gold made from gold-plated platinum! Were these made by the British, too?

[grivna1726]

I read in the recent issue of Numismatist that US was planning to strike "pieces of 8", but finally came up with trade dollar instead. This was to accomodate trade with China demands.

This situation continues with the Maria Theresa talers which are "restruck" in our time (with frozen 1780 date) by Austrian and several other governments. As I understand it, they are made simply to provide coins for trade which will be willingly accepted (by some people who will not accept anything else). I have also read that full-weight copies of gold sovereigns are made for the Middle East, again not to deceive or cheat anyone, but simply to provide gold in a widely recognized and readily accepted form.

 

I haven't seen the article you mention concerning the Trade Dollar, but it sounds like the US had a similar motivation. Spanish 8 reales were widely known and accepted in China, being trusted for maintaining the integrity of their silver content. No doubt a new and unfamiliar issue like the Trade Dollar might well be regarded with some suspicion.

[grivna1726]

I seem to recall that there were contemporary counterfeits of French gold made from gold-plated platinum! Were these made by the British, too?

Bobh, I don't know, but I doubt it.

 

At one time platinum was much less valuable than gold, yet very close in terms of its weight and therefore very attractive to counterfeiters.

 

I do know that there are counterfeits of Spanish gold coins struck in platinum which were then gold-plated to pass into circulation. I have been told that these were most likely made by jewelers using platinum found in Latin America (Colombia, if memory is correct) and passed into circulation in the Spanish colonies.

 

I don't know, but doubt that these were made by governments. Ordinary crooks are a more likely source, in my opinion.

 

If the purpose is economic warfare, then paper money is a more likely target (e.g. WWII German forgeries of low denomination British notes and Napoleon's forgeries of Russian assignats in the French invasion of Russia). I think the Brits also counterfeited the Continentals during the American Revolution.

[one-kuna]

in case with russian re-strike very obvious reason for this kind of action was make whole in blokade of the young russian government orginezed by westerm countries which was clearly said earlier

[Loyal Citizen]

Bobh, I don't know, but I doubt it.

 

At one time platinum was much less valuable than gold, yet very close in terms of its weight and therefore very attractive to counterfeiters.

 

I do know that there are counterfeits of Spanish gold coins struck in platinum which were then gold-plated to pass into circulation. I have been told that these were most likely made by jewelers using platinum found in Latin America (Colombia, if memory is correct) and passed into circulation in the Spanish colonies.

 

I don't know, but doubt that these were made by governments. Ordinary crooks are a more likely source, in my opinion.

 

If the purpose is economic warfare, then paper money is a more likely target (e.g. WWII German forgeries of low denomination British notes and Napoleon's forgeries of Russian assignats in the French invasion of Russia). I think the Brits also counterfeited the Continentals during the American Revolution.

Another famous example of such warfare is Swedish "Russian" copper 5 kopeks. Interesting enough that in this case the fakes are much scarcer than the originals.