bobh Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Would you pay €25,000 for this one? Link: http://www.numismatica.hu/cms/index.php?pa...t&Itemid=31 Again, I have some problems with the lettering. The mintmark "S" looks wrong (too top-heavy), and the letter "K" also seems to be wrong. Also, the bottom loop of the "5" in the denomination is open on the auction coin, whereas both Bitkin and Brekke show a closed "5". Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted October 1, 2009 Report Share Posted October 1, 2009 Would you pay €25,000 for this one?Link: http://www.numismatica.hu/cms/index.php?pa...t&Itemid=31 Again, I have some problems with the lettering. The mintmark "S" looks wrong (too top-heavy), and the letter "K" also seems to be wrong. Also, the bottom loop of the "5" in the denomination is open on the auction coin, whereas both Bitkin and Brekke show a closed "5". Hmmm... Hi Bob, to me the coin looks damn good. If this is a modern fake I'll give up collecting instantly. I think there was a novodel about 3 years ago in an Elmen sale. Will check tomorrow. BTW: As you don't cite Diakov: His 2 pictures are not helpful as they are the same as the Grand Duke Michailovitch's, Bitkin's and Brekke's. The Brekke collection piece was a novodel, very different from the coin in question. Sigi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Would you pay €25,000 for this one?Link: http://www.numismatica.hu/cms/index.php?pa...t&Itemid=31 Again, I have some problems with the lettering. The mintmark "S" looks wrong (too top-heavy), and the letter "K" also seems to be wrong. Also, the bottom loop of the "5" in the denomination is open on the auction coin, whereas both Bitkin and Brekke show a closed "5". Hmmm... Yes I would if I have 25 grand , last year estimate was about double+ from today estimate price for 1771 5k original. Images looks ok, but the best to see in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Yes I would if I have 25 grand , last year estimate was about double+ from today estimate price for 1771 5k original.Images looks ok, but the best to see in person. Wow, nice one with broken die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Wow, nice one with broken die Nice red!!!The best I have see sold couple years back on Moneti i Medali sale in Moscow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 Maybe you should all take a second look. 1. Bird and sword handle Brekke catalog: Bitkin catalog: Nudelman auction: 2. Denomination Brekke catalog: Bitkin catalog: Nudelman auction: All details in Brekke and Bitkin are exactly the same (but this is no surprise, it's the same coin). However, the angle of lighting seems to be slightly different, so it is worth having both of them here. Now compare the bird's neck and the ground upon which it is standing, as well as the crosspiece of the sword handle and the position of the star to the left of the moon. All are quite different in the Nudelman piece! In the denomination, look at the width of "5" and of the "O" in "КОПѢЕКѢ" (sic.) as well as the vertical spacing relative to the horizontal dividing line. The bottom of the "5" is much more open in the Nudelman coin. Also, the right side of the dot after the mintmark "S." lines up exactly with the leftmost edge of the bottom serif of the letter "E", whereas the dot is much farther to the left on the Nudelman coin. Also, the crossbar of the letter "Ѣ" is noticeably higher than the top of "П" in the Nudelman image than in the others. I don't think there should be so many differences between pattern coins where maybe only a handful were struck from one pair of dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottishmoney Posted October 2, 2009 Report Share Posted October 2, 2009 We really need to here from Banivechi on this one, he is our resident Sadagura specialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Brekke coin's "5" is a result of a die break that continues above the 5. All other differences could be explained by a die that began to deteriorate. After all, this was a huge die, while they could not even execute the smaller pieces with quality and consistency at Sadogura. I would buy this one in a heartbeat for 25K. However, It should go for much more. I would not be surprised if it sold for over 50K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Well, I spent a lot of time superimposing images from the other side as well ... the date side corresponds pretty exactly to the Nudelman image. I'm inclined to believe that the differences might be due to the low resolution and different lighting of the catalog images; however, I am stumped as to why the denomination and lettering should be so different. I can't just put those down to chance differences in lighting. But tell me, why would a deteriorating die put the crossbar of the letter "Ѣ" in a different place relative to the neighboring "П", or the star next to the moon closer to it? I suppose the earth rotated a little between strikes... Doesn't anyone have access to more images, or links to images, of this spectacular coin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigistenz Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 Well, I spent a lot of time superimposing images from the other side as well ... the date side corresponds pretty exactly to the Nudelman image. I'm inclined to believe that the differences might be due to the low resolution and different lighting of the catalog images; however, I am stumped as to why the denomination and lettering should be so different. I can't just put those down to chance differences in lighting. But tell me, why would a deteriorating die put the crossbar of the letter "Ѣ" in a different place relative to the neighboring "П", or the star next to the moon closer to it? I suppose the earth rotated a little between strikes... Doesn't anyone have access to more images, or links to images, of this spectacular coin? Here is the MiM novodel, which of course is different (vertical 5 etc) http://www.numismat.ru/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi...1&number=21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 But tell me, why would a deteriorating die put the crossbar of the letter "Ѣ" in a different place relative to the neighboring "П", or the star next to the moon closer to it? I suppose the earth rotated a little between strikes... I do not see the difference in those two... Maybe you are just looking too hard? :-) As to images, if you ask nicely on the forum, at least one of us has a very nice original 5 kop in his collection. Also check Markov a few years back (about 3 sales back) there was one for sale there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RARENUM Posted October 3, 2009 Report Share Posted October 3, 2009 I do not see the difference in those two... Maybe you are just looking too hard? :-) As to images, if you ask nicely on the forum, at least one of us has a very nice original 5 kop in his collection. Also check Markov a few years back (about 3 sales back) there was one for sale there. I agree coin looks okey, possible was cleaned, the pic. not clear. Original was sold in California, not on Markov .Markov sold 1771 5k Klingert' collection Novodel, I have purchased coin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Just realized -- there was also one on the October Moscow auction (and the coin is very rare): http://www.numismat.ru/au.shtml?au=59&...m=10&page=2 along with some other cool stuff like 1 kop 1765 em (not sold) and a 1 kop plate! which did sell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Just realized -- there was also one on the October Moscow auction (and the coin is very rare): http://www.numismat.ru/au.shtml?au=59&...m=10&page=2 along with some other cool stuff like 1 kop 1765 em (not sold) and a 1 kop plate! which did sell. Thanks for the link, BKB ... wonder if anyone has the large pictures of that lot? One additional thing I noticed when comparing these pictures ... even though the MiM images are quite small (or perhaps just for that reason) it looks like the coin is not exactly round, but somewhat oval shaped (longer from top to bottom than across). At first I thought it was just the Nudelman photo perspective, but it looks that way on the other coin, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 Thanks for the link, BKB ... wonder if anyone has the large pictures of that lot? One additional thing I noticed when comparing these pictures ... even though the MiM images are quite small (or perhaps just for that reason) it looks like the coin is not exactly round, but somewhat oval shaped (longer from top to bottom than across). At first I thought it was just the Nudelman photo perspective, but it looks that way on the other coin, too. The one I held was pretty round... But, they were probably struck without collar and can be all sort of shapes. I would love to have one of them (even if it is oval :-) ), but with that price tag it is as it should be and as it always was -- a hobby for the wealthy if you are into rare stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 ...a 1 kop plate! which did sell. A dream coin! Does anyone have the large images of that 1 kopek plate? Please? Considering the rarity of this type, the price (2000000 RUR or ~ $70,000) seems rather modest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted October 11, 2009 Report Share Posted October 11, 2009 A dream coin! Does anyone have the large images of that 1 kopek plate? Please? Considering the rarity of this type, the price (2000000 RUR or ~ $70,000) seems rather modest. I have large images for the whole auction (except Gold & any Silver beyond 1855 which I don't follow) Can't upload here though (its still broken). I can email them. Send me a PM (Bob I already emailed you the 1771). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I have large images for the whole auction (except Gold & any Silver beyond 1855 which I don't follow)Can't upload here though (its still broken). I can email them. Send me a PM (Bob I already emailed you the 1771). Grivna....images emailed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Grivna....images emailed. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted October 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 I have large images for the whole auction (except Gold & any Silver beyond 1855 which I don't follow)Can't upload here though (its still broken). I can email them. Send me a PM (Bob I already emailed you the 1771). Steve, thanks very much for the cipher image ... unfortunately, I didn't receive the 1771 yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Steve, thanks very much for the cipher image ... unfortunately, I didn't receive the 1771 yet. Resent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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