Ippocampos Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Not only is the buyer in Russia, the buyer has only been on eBay for about 2 weeks! Thanks Guys (and ladies)! Indeed Russia again... but hopefully not to Xavarovsk! another item going back to its rightful home I guess.. I will miss it .. but am sure once the arms race is over they will crop up all over the place.. I am still young! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ippocampos Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Thanks Guys (and ladies)!Indeed Russia again... but hopefully not to Xavarovsk! another item going back to its rightful home I guess.. I will miss it .. but am sure once the arms race is over they will crop up all over the place.. I am still young! I stand corrected ... HELLO MY NAME IS **** I AM FROM RUSSIA I WON THIS AUCTION (260216847879) I WANT PAY FOR THIS TOKEN WHITH WESTERN UNION SYSTEM OK? BUT BAFORE I MAKE PAYMENT FOR YOU I NEED GOOD SCANS (PHOTOS) OF THIS TOKEN AND COPIES (SCANS) OF DOCUMENTS "....Authenticated by Internationally renowned auction house....". I WANT REAL TOKEN - NO NOVODEL!!! PLEASE WRIGHT ME PAYMENT DETALS AND SEND ME PHOTOS (SCANS) TO MY E-MAIL BOX **** Thanks.Best Regards... Name hidden for his privacy... I will satisfy his wish .. what to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 I stand corrected ...HELLO MY NAME IS **** I AM FROM RUSSIA I WON THIS AUCTION (260216847879) I WANT PAY FOR THIS TOKEN WHITH WESTERN UNION SYSTEM OK? BUT BAFORE I MAKE PAYMENT FOR YOU I NEED GOOD SCANS (PHOTOS) OF THIS TOKEN AND COPIES (SCANS) OF DOCUMENTS "....Authenticated by Internationally renowned auction house....". I WANT REAL TOKEN - NO NOVODEL!!! PLEASE WRIGHT ME PAYMENT DETALS AND SEND ME PHOTOS (SCANS) TO MY E-MAIL BOX **** Thanks.Best Regards... Name hidden for his privacy... I will satisfy his wish .. what to do... He should have asked you all this before he bid! I think it's too late after the auction is over. It is up to you whether you want to honor his demands. Since you stated in the auction description that your token was authenticated by a renowned auction house -- for your future auctions, it might make sense to add more details as to the piece's pedigree (i.e. which auction house, which auction, lot number, former owners, etc.) Might even bring you a higher price! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ippocampos Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 He should have asked you all this before he bid! I think it's too late after the auction is over. It is up to you whether you want to honor his demands. Since you stated in the auction description that your token was authenticated by a renowned auction house -- for your future auctions, it might make sense to add more details as to the piece's pedigree (i.e. which auction house, which auction, lot number, former owners, etc.) Might even bring you a higher price! Indeed... but have informed him (it will take me some time) and if he puts up a show .. will get the written authentication he wants (mine was verbal only) and then tell him to get lost..! If he is ok with waiting than fine by me. Thought it was interesting to mention this request as it seems more and more people want documents.. just like slabbed... (or slapped! if you are one particular auction house).. which worries me as people will focus more on the documents than the coins themselves.. and we all know how that could end up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 Indeed... but have informed him (it will take me some time) and if he puts up a show .. will get the written authentication he wants (mine was verbal only) and then tell him to get lost..! If he is ok with waiting than fine by me.Thought it was interesting to mention this request as it seems more and more people want documents.. just like slabbed... (or slapped! if you are one particular auction house).. which worries me as people will focus more on the documents than the coins themselves.. and we all know how that could end up. At this point it's too late and you're under no obligation. He is now contractually obliged to buy it from you. That's the theory anyway. Practically, though, getting ebay to force him to pay would be likely impossible. You might want to keep him happy so that he might pay, but it's really unacceptable. Can you imagine pulling this kind of stunt at a real auction house after the hammer went down. He'd be thrown out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ippocampos Posted March 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 At this point it's too late and you're under no obligation. He is now contractually obliged to buy it from you. That's the theory anyway. Practically, though, getting ebay to force him to pay would be likely impossible. You might want to keep him happy so that he might pay, but it's really unacceptable. Can you imagine pulling this kind of stunt at a real auction house after the hammer went down. He'd be thrown out. It does smell like the last deal went.. as the guy after buying came back with are you sure its not a novodel etc.. but maybe this guy is reacting to the lovely feedback i had got before... so will give him the benefit of the doubt unless he starts getting aggro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE MOULDING Posted March 9, 2008 Report Share Posted March 9, 2008 It does smell like the last deal went.. as the guy after buying came back with are you sure its not a novodel etc.. but maybe this guy is reacting to the lovely feedback i had got before... so will give him the benefit of the doubt unless he starts getting aggro. Hmm. Looking at the other stuff he's been buying (median price around $10) I'd say this is a massive step up for him and he's likely to be very nervous about this kind of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Sorry Ippo, but this buyer sounds like he is trying to set you up for trouble. Be careful. (it sounds like you are careful, in not saying you arent) Did you have any similar problems with your other coins you were selling on ebay at the same time as this beard token? Perhaps if you have more coins to sell in the future, getting them slabbed would be good insurance for you to not worry, and might be good to establish better percieved reputation.... that nasty negative from the last problem buyer will make any serious bidder nervous. You will also almost certainly get more for your coins if slabbed. Also, as full disclosure, i did bid, but i was way down on the list. I would have gone higher toward the end time (ie snipe ) but the price was already higher than my budget would allow by that time. My bid still stands, but it is insultingly low with respect to your winner from Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I don't exactly know how it works but if the runner up might be easier to deal with you could probably make him a second chance offer, you'll get 1,511. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I stand corrected ...HELLO MY NAME IS **** I AM FROM RUSSIA I WON THIS AUCTION (260216847879) I WANT PAY FOR THIS TOKEN WHITH WESTERN UNION SYSTEM OK? BUT BAFORE I MAKE PAYMENT FOR YOU I NEED GOOD SCANS (PHOTOS) OF THIS TOKEN AND COPIES (SCANS) OF DOCUMENTS "....Authenticated by Internationally renowned auction house....". I WANT REAL TOKEN - NO NOVODEL!!! PLEASE WRIGHT ME PAYMENT DETALS AND SEND ME PHOTOS (SCANS) TO MY E-MAIL BOX **** Thanks.Best Regards... Name hidden for his privacy... I will satisfy his wish .. what to do... I think he sounds like Trouble with a capital "T". If you complete the deal with him, my guess is that it will be a miserable experience for you. I agree with alexbq2. Bypass this clown and offer to the underbidder. If he isn't any better, then just refuse to sell it to either of them & consign it to a real auction house. You might get some flak from ebay if you do that, but I think it'll be a lot less painful than dealing with the high bidder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sysnik Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I agree with opinions expressed above. Buyer should have done his homework BEFORE bidding. Your negative feedback from Borodino sale was available to the buyer before the auction began. I considered placing a bid on your token myself because it is an interesting piece with a fascinating story. However, I am far from being an expert on this token. Although it certainly seemed like you believe that the token is authentic, it wasn't obvious to me. Thus, I had four choices: 1. Not to participate in the auction 2. Request additional information from you (after reading this thread, it seemed that there wasn't much extra aside from asking for larger scans) 3. Assume that the token is authentic and place a full-value (as perceived by me) bid. 4. Assume that the token is not authentic but still has some historical value (e.g. wasn't made in China last week) and place a substantially smaller bid reflecting that fact Personally, I entertained #4, but by that time the price went beyond my "substantially smaller" amount. Oh well, that wasn't a big surprise - apparently a couple of less risk-averse people decided to take a leap and go with #3. However, at no point I thought of going with #3 and then, after winning, following up with #2. Having said that, I can see a case when buyer comes across certain doubt-casting information after winning the auction and requesting qualification. However, it doesn't look like this is the case. It sounds like buyer is demanding extra documentation from you as a precondition for making a payment. I think you have every right to pull out of this deal. In the future, you might want to qualify statements like "Authenticated by Internationally renowned auction house" (e.g. "Verbally authenticated" or "Accepted by"). Although I've never heard of an auction house providing authentication documents to the seller, some might interpret your statement as you having those documents available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Perhaps if you have more coins to sell in the future, getting them slabbed would be good insurance for you to not worry, and might be good to establish better percieved reputation.... Not a bad idea. Although I am not a fan of slabs, for items like this it does take away a lot of insecurity on the part of the buyer and the seller. However, ippocampos lives in Switzerland (?? although it says item location is London in the eBay auction ??). Slabbing poses some obstacles for European collectors, although I know that UBS will handle submissions to PCGS or NGC. Right now, I'm wondering what I should do with the 1865-EM pyatak novodel that I recently bought on eBay if I ever decide to sell it. Thanks to Steve Moulding we were able to determine that it had been sold twice at auction by Jim Elmen. I have the catalogs of both auctions and know the lot numbers. However, if I wanted to sell it on eBay, I would have to have better proof than what I've got (a few e-mails and two catalogs with images -- however, images are subject to dispute and interpretation, especially if they are sub-optimal quality or B/W as is the case here). At any rate, I would not hesitate to state the item's pedigree in my auction description as well as catalog scans to support my statements. If I went to an auction house, OTOH, I could take the catalogs with me. Maybe the people running the auction even know Jim Elmen and/or the eBay seller I bought it from. They might not hesitate to mention the pedigree in their auction, even if I didn't go to the expense of having it slabbed (and risk losing the coin in the mail). My advice to ippocampos, should you have more items of this rarity requiring special knowledge, etc., DON'T sell them on eBay! For genuine items, you can probably get a higher price through a reputable auction house, and it is the auction house who has to collect the money from the seller. The Russians will buy, but you won't have to deal with the shipment, customs, etc. etc. Another thing: Seeing something like this item on eBay makes me automatically think: FAKE ... even when it isn't! The fact that it is listed on eBay makes me think that the seller wasn't able to have a reputable auction house accept it for auction, and I usually just scroll further down the list and forget about it. Obviously, a serious buyer who is out to buy a genuine beard token (or genuine novodel) isn't going to look around at eBay as their first choice of venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ippocampos Posted March 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Not a bad idea. Although I am not a fan of slabs, for items like this it does take away a lot of insecurity on the part of the buyer and the seller. However, ippocampos lives in Switzerland (?? although it says item location is London in the eBay auction ??). Slabbing poses some obstacles for European collectors, although I know that UBS will handle submissions to PCGS or NGC. Right now, I'm wondering what I should do with the 1865-EM pyatak novodel that I recently bought on eBay if I ever decide to sell it. Thanks to Steve Moulding we were able to determine that it had been sold twice at auction by Jim Elmen. I have the catalogs of both auctions and know the lot numbers. However, if I wanted to sell it on eBay, I would have to have better proof than what I've got (a few e-mails and two catalogs with images -- however, images are subject to dispute and interpretation, especially if they are sub-optimal quality or B/W as is the case here). At any rate, I would not hesitate to state the item's pedigree in my auction description as well as catalog scans to support my statements. If I went to an auction house, OTOH, I could take the catalogs with me. Maybe the people running the auction even know Jim Elmen and/or the eBay seller I bought it from. They might not hesitate to mention the pedigree in their auction, even if I didn't go to the expense of having it slabbed (and risk losing the coin in the mail). My advice to ippocampos, should you have more items of this rarity requiring special knowledge, etc., DON'T sell them on eBay! For genuine items, you can probably get a higher price through a reputable auction house, and it is the auction house who has to collect the money from the seller. The Russians will buy, but you won't have to deal with the shipment, customs, etc. etc. Another thing: Seeing something like this item on eBay makes me automatically think: FAKE ... even when it isn't! The fact that it is listed on eBay makes me think that the seller wasn't able to have a reputable auction house accept it for auction, and I usually just scroll further down the list and forget about it. Obviously, a serious buyer who is out to buy a genuine beard token (or genuine novodel) isn't going to look around at eBay as their first choice of venue. Advice taken! My sincere thanks... Will pass to 2nd chance bidder (but he looks dubious too) and then maybe after all take to auction house.. I am tempted to trade though with someone on this forum as I am also a copper overstrike man... particularly paul overstrikes on ciphers.. have loads of 1793 but no other years.. if anyone is interested am happy to send the coin to them .. they can also authenticate and upon success offer swap ? avoids both of us putting up large sums of $$$.. for what is after all our passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Another thing: Seeing something like this item on eBay makes me automatically think: FAKE ... even when it isn't! The fact that it is listed on eBay makes me think that the seller wasn't able to have a reputable auction house accept it for auction, and I usually just scroll further down the list and forget about it. Obviously, a serious buyer who is out to buy a genuine beard token (or genuine novodel) isn't going to look around at eBay as their first choice of venue. I agree. Except when coming from an established, reputable dealer, my baseline assumption is that a rare piece offered on ebay is probably a fake. If it is not a fake, then it is probably the picked-over remains of some leftover dealer stock that knowledgeable collectors have rejected and so is being dumped on ebay. If I want to acquire a rare and/or choice coin, then I buy from trusted, reputable dealers/auctioneers with whom I have established a personal relationship, not some stranger on the internet. My guess that there are a lot of other collectors out there who have similar attitudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 I agree. Except when coming from an established, reputable dealer, my baseline assumption is that a rare piece offered on ebay is probably a fake. If it is not a fake, then it is probably the picked-over remains of some leftover dealer stock that knowledgeable collectors have rejected and so is being dumped on ebay. If I want to acquire a rare and/or choice coin, then I buy from trusted, reputable dealers/auctioneers with whom I have established a personal relationship, not some stranger on the internet. My guess that there are a lot of other collectors out there who have similar attitudes. There are dealers who can be trusted. You have to find them, though. Usually it isn't too hard thanks to the feedback feature and general reputation of some dealers. Unfortunately, what you say seems to be very true -- I am very wary of buying any uncirculated coins which aren't slabbed because in reality, they often have problems which are not evident from the images. If I am only looking to pay XF or AU money, though, and the pictures are good, then that is a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexbq2 Posted March 10, 2008 Report Share Posted March 10, 2008 Hi Ippocampos, I was reading your historical note on the eBay beard token page, and while I will not disagree with the following statement: “Calling for a pair of scissors he had acquired in Holland, Peter personally cut off the flowing beards of the stunned noblemen.” I will add that according to the popular lore, it was a rusty axe that Peter called for, and then used it to cut of and shave the Boyars beards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kit Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 Hi Ippocampos, I suggest do not reply to the buyer and simply open unpaid item dispute. He will have to explain to eBay why he refuses to pay. He has no legitimate reason not to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gxseries Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 I suggest not. This very buyer can make a fuss when he paid for the token and then when he receives it, he will yell that it's not genuine and demand full money back. Might as well avoid trouble in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted March 11, 2008 Report Share Posted March 11, 2008 I suggest not. This very buyer can make a fuss when he paid for the token and then when he receives it, he will yell that it's not genuine and demand full money back. Might as well avoid trouble in the first place. Agreed. It sounds like it will be a replay of Ippocampos's earlier experience. I would avoid this buyer like the plague. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariba Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Found this thread on Staraya Moneta started by your high bidder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ippocampos Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Found this thread on Staraya Moneta started by your high bidder. Very interesting! any translation available ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobh Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Very interesting! any translation available ?? You might try this: http://translate.google.com/translate_t?langpair=ru|en However, it will only give you the jist of what is being discussed. Looks like he doesn't have any idea what this coin would be worth and is asking for advice. At first he didn't want to mention where the auction is, then someone else posted the link to eBay. He was not happy about that. One person categorically stated that the piece is fake ("Фуфло") without offering any evidence or details about why. BTW, in the meantime I have compared your token with Steve's and have come to the conclusion that the differences in the lettering I saw are due to a combination of different lighting and the gilding which makes some parts highlight differently than others. Another reason why it is important to authenticate or refute such coins only if one can inspect them in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ippocampos Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 You might try this: http://translate.google.com/translate_t?langpair=ru|en However, it will only give you the jist of what is being discussed. Looks like he doesn't have any idea what this coin would be worth and is asking for advice. At first he didn't want to mention where the auction is, then someone else posted the link to eBay. He was not happy about that. One person categorically stated that the piece is fake ("Фуфло") without offering any evidence or details about why. BTW, in the meantime I have compared your token with Steve's and have come to the conclusion that the differences in the lettering I saw are due to a combination of different lighting and the gilding which makes some parts highlight differently than others. Another reason why it is important to authenticate or refute such coins only if one can inspect them in person. Ok many thanks. Am thinking of cancelling deal due to evidence that the guy is going to bringer of ill tidings and trouble.. I can either put it on auction (at an auction house) but am also happy to send to anyone on this panel... for inspection and happy to trade if of interest.. ? for some very nice copper overstrikes!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Also looks like he is looking for offers to invest, before he even gets the token in hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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