Mark Stilson Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 PCGS and NGC have released statements on submissions of doctored coins. PCGS statement. NGC statement. The NGC one seems pretty tough for those who may not have the same abilities as a professional grader at NGC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfox Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 This one made me chuckle from the PCGS statements. "We are fighting the coin doctors who are trying to take advantage of the marketplace, deceive the public and perhaps pursue our money back guarantee" I know what they mean, but how it's worded makes it seem like they are saying that they are fighting anyone who tries to get the guarantee, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I think they should just out the dealer who sent the doctored coins to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vfox Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I really think this screams insecurity, this move not only says they have been blamed for guaranteeing doctored coins, but that their graders are susceptible to having these coins passed by, and placed into slabs. I also find it ironic they are both making the same move, I wonder if ANACS will follow? If they want a simple solution, slab EVERYTHING and just say what has been done, give it no grade and call it a day. That way doc's will not only have to pay money for a slab that says their coins are crap, but they will have to admit that they really do have crap for coins, and apparently brains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stilson Posted January 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I agree it does seem like they are unsure whether some will come back and bite them. I feel sorry for the "Joe Coincollector" (I.E. me and others) who has not been trained on detection. Some coins I have I know have been cleaned and I would not send them in, because of that. But I am sure I probably have coins that have been worked that I am not aware of. Unless ANACS changes I don't think it will change how they grade. Don't they use the catch all "Altered surfaces" or something similar on their slab right now? If so they might even pick up extra business if collectors are not sure about the coins they bought. One thing this brings to mind is the "Monster" toner new coins. Is PCGS or NGC going to be more critical of them? Or will it be considered "market acceptable"? I don't think all monster toners were purposely toned, but how many are and does that constitute doctoring in their eyes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I wonder how consistent they can be at telling doctoring from one coin to the next. Mint state "grading" has truly become a farce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMS Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 I have been reading this on a number of forums and am still startled that nobody has yet pointed out the statement: In addition to close examination and scrutiny by PCGS graders, coins suspected of tampering in violation of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, Section 331, may be submitted by PCGS to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) for review to determine if U.S. law has been violated. PCGS will cooperate fully if the FBI believes there is sufficient information to warrant an investigation.... “PCGS Authorized Dealers are encouraged to review and understand the dealer agreement and to understand the scope and application of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, Section 331,” said Guth. Title 18, Section 331, involves the mutilation, diminution and falsification of coins, and states: Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished falsified, scaled, or lightened; Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. Now, on the face, everybody seems to think that PCGS will only be going after dealers and not collectors. If you believe that, then you could not possibly believe that PCGS grades it coins without respect to the submitter. In the first emphasized segment in the above statement, it is clear that any coin suspect of alteration may be submitted to the FBI. That means that the determination will be made during the grading process. This is supposedly a process in which the graders have NO idea of the origin of the said coin. They would not know whether it was submitted by a "dealer" or a "collector". Here comes another problem. PCGS, in order to keep themselves clear of possible federal lawsuits for interference with commerce, must submit altered coins to the FBI without prejudice. That means that the source of the altered coin can not be taken into consideration. This means that "collectors" as well as "dealers" must be reported to the FBI without prejudice. Otherwise, DHRC and PCGS open themselves to actionable tort and possible criminal investigation by reporting "only dealers", who inadvertently are "competitors" of DHRC, the principle of which who also has principle interest in PCGS. So, basically, you have a situation where you as the "collector" may very well be "turned in" to the FBI for submitting a coin you bought for certification. A coin you bought, and subsequently sent, along with money paid, to a company whose purpose is to validate, verify, and authenticate the coin for you, turning you into an agency for criminal investigation. That is outright outrageous! Even if you are a dealer, you are paying them for a service, which they claim they are "professionals" and "experts" at. For those that ever wonder why some of us outright eschew the TPGs, this is one of the biggest factors: They are truly useless! Now that I am through ranting, here is something every collector really needs to consider. There has been a massive propaganda movement over the past three years to push a mentality that "government regulation" is needed in the numismatic industry. The PNG is a "professional" guild servicing and supported by "dealers", not "collectors". The ANA has lost some of the faith its members had had in it in the past, and is seemingly in continued litigation of one form or another. The only seemingly organizations with a strong foundation in the "market" are the TPGs. The TPGs are already organized and equipped to authenticate coins. The TPGs have the "drive" to "ensure" that the numismatic industry is free from counterfeit and altered coins. The TPGs are (erroneously) considered by many (especially investors and new, ignorant "collectors") to be the "de facto" and "authority" on numismatics and grading. The TPGs are already setup (and apparently willing) to be a regulatory body in the numismatic industry. Regardless whether they are "non-government" entities, remember the RIAA and Sound Exchange. Sound Exchange started as a "non-government" entity, subsidiary to the RIAA, and has today become the authorized entity under federal legislation to regulate and receive music royalties. If a trade cartel can get the U.S. Government to appoint one of its subsidiary entities to act as a government body, I see no reason why an eventual trade cartel in the numismatic industry could not become the same. These letters should not be applauded, but scrutinized, along with the history of these company's ill-dealings, and realized to be what they truly are. Collector beware! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostDutchman Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 The best doctored coins are some of the ones already in holders.... this isn't gonna stop any of the coin doctors... The good coin doctors can do things to coins that have been fooling graders for years... I don't see how posting this is gonna do anything unless there has been some sort of breakthrough in grading technology that can detect this... which i haven't heard of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiho Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I have a real love/hate relationship with TPG's, but if I spend several hundred dollars on a European gold coin from the 1700's I absolutely need to know if it's genuine or not. The Chinese are producing some amazing counterfeits these days and while I can spot some of the fakes I still get fooled now and again. My biggest beef with NGC is not that they return coins as "cleaned", but lately they have come back rejected as "scratched" and my absolute favorite, "bent". PGCS are no better and have become much too elitist and expensive to even consider using any more. These days I only use ANACS, but not until I have studied the coin unslabbed for at least a year. That way I can enjoy it and come to my own conclusions about it's condition and grade before it goes off to the experts. ANACS may not be perfect, but they tell it like it is, and only really reject a coin if it's a fake. As for doctored coins, as I see it it's just another landmine to avoid in the field of coin collecting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just carl Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 I was really glad to read all this. It reminds me of all the laws we have on the books to stop murder, robberies, rapes, etc. Those sure work so statements like those of the TPG's will surely work to stop all such coin tampering, counterfeiting, faking or whatever. And naturally this will really scare the Chinese that are counterfeiting both the coins and the slabs. AHHH, great to have laws. And remember it is a FEDERAL CRIME to copy movies and everyone knows how that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlueke Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Some indication of why the warranty was changed can be read here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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